Pakistan’s first sect-free mosque calls for end to discrimination

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: Pakistan’s first sect-free mosque calls for end to discrimination

^ at the moment the infighting is more as people are not aware of the differences between different sects. A lot of propaganda, which can't go away until there's an avenue where they can mix and discuss. No where in the world we will find dozens of sects even in Sunnis (and all of them consider themselves Muslims and the rest kafirs). Leave alone Sunnis and Shias, even deobandis and barelvis don't go to each others mosques to pray. This is Pakistan where as every where else hanafis, hanbalis, malikis and Shafis pray together. Islam's basic concept was to unite people, we have divided them in the name of the same religion.

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Re: Pakistan’s first sect-free mosque calls for end to discrimination

If Deobandis/Barelvis were to pray in their own specific mosques that would mean Pakistanis (hanafi) would pray in Pakistani mosques, Arabs would pray in Arab mosques (hanbali), malays would pray in malay mosques (shafi) and Africans would pray in African mosques (maliki).

That’s another thing that Islam taught us this:

Allama Iqbal eloquently explained this dilemma:

Yu’n to syed bhi ho, mirza bhi ho, afghan bhi ho,
Tum sabhi kuch ho, bataao to musalmaan bhi ho ?

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Re: Pakistan’s first sect-free mosque calls for end to discrimination

Well sect free mosque is a misnomer then ... What we are looking for in Pakistan is a multi- madhab institute. Where valid differences of opinion are taught and understood.

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Re: Pakistan’s first sect-free mosque calls for end to discrimination

I could be wrong but I believe army mosques are sect free mosques, aren't they?

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Re: Pakistan’s first sect-free mosque calls for end to discrimination

Why have so many differences been caused in the first place that lead to a division of one whole ummah - same ummah that the Taliban want to take over in totality - a division that causes friends to pray in separate places??

Isn't there something INHERENTLY wrong when we arbitrarily over time say hey I'll do an azaan this way, or I'll do prayer times this way or I'll do my salaam this way, etc. If the reliigious scholars took it upon themselves to divide the ummah in the first place by creating 100 different ways of doing the same thing when the Prophet (saw) had one way, and this only leads to more division and ultimately deaths, then why should we be listening to mullahs/fiqhs, etc anymore? Just have one standard prayer - that is what they do in American mosques, they don't necessarily have an American mosque that does Hanafi way and another another way - we have one mosque and everyone comes here, and I can guarantee you that minorities like shias and ismailis and even ahmedies that are in a city where they don't have their own jamaat khana, they probably attend the regular mosques and pray along side everyone else.

What I don't get is this sunni desire to do everything the way the Prophet (saw) did it down to growing a beard and using a miswaak when we have toothbrushes, and people can know you're muslim and respect you without you having to grow a beard these days that would make these old ways of doing things obsolete. Yet when it comes to the simple prayer, we create so many divisions and differences that we force people into different buildings to pray.

As if the maulvis that designed these sects wanted to be followed and revered like the Prophet himself.

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Re: Pakistan’s first sect-free mosque calls for end to discrimination

This is ignorance brother and i dont think there is any harm in it , only thing that makes thing worst is insisting that only my way is correct.

Appreciate that the only feasable way is to promote tolereance and respect. and this is not deobandi/barelvi/wahabi thing, they can live (majority of them can) with each other. i know many groups of barelvis /deobandis /wahbis respecting each other. so addressing it as difference between deobandi etc thing is not correct.

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Re: Pakistan’s first sect-free mosque calls for end to discrimination

The only way to solve racism, sectarianism, nationalism is from the top that means the whole political system has to change because it is divided along sectarian lines not just schools of thought in islam you have people impregnated with ideas of i am balochi, i am punjabi i am pathan etc.

This mosque is very limited in scope and will have next to no impact on society sadly.

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Re: Pakistan’s first sect-free mosque calls for end to discrimination

Yes, there is something inherently wrong in being exclusive and different. But there in nothing wrong in being inclusive and different.

so long as the difference is rooted in evidence.

I don't think we can say that RasoolAllah (SAW) had one way of doing something ... But we can say he (SAW) did things based on the time and the need of the day.

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Re: Pakistan’s first sect-free mosque calls for end to discrimination

what really gets me is that the mosque has to declare a sect before planning permission is given. Creating this mosque is a step in the right direction however it shows sectarianism is politically rooted in pakistan (not just culturally) and that makes the situation even more difficult. The problem is that when politics is constantly promoting a certain type of thinking, it becomes pervasive and seeps into the culture of that country and in this case in pakistan which is what i believe we are seeing right now. I commend what these guys are doing and im impressed at the accolades that they all have professionally. Wish we could hear more stories like this

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Re: Pakistan’s first sect-free mosque calls for end to discrimination

^its not as simplistic as it seems. There are associations of senior molvies who regulate their respective registered madraahs/mosques. So if some activity is going on, the authorities contact the senior molvi council. That way local population doesn't get agitated.Opening this kind of mosques isn't going to solve anything. The problem is much deeper and broadbased. "involvement'' of US doesn't help either.

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Re: Pakistan’s first sect-free mosque calls for end to discrimination

You're picking out small differences & making a case that why people should not unite against bigotry and hatred spread by mullahs. In the US (and in most western countries) Muslims from all over the world pray together & they have no problems. Why is this going to be a problem in country that was created for Muslims & has 97% Muslims population?

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Re: Pakistan’s first sect-free mosque calls for end to discrimination

You know there are Brawelis walking around thinking its a sin to pray alongside a Shia never mind behind one? Get rid of all the greedy, corrupt self made "scholars" and mullas and give Pakistanis the tools to educate themselves properly rather than blindly following the next idiot.

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Re: Pakistan’s first sect-free mosque calls for end to discrimination


I'm not Shia but even I know this is a massive lie and slur, it's to do with the three times they say AllahuAkbar. Look at all this ignorance how can there be peace?

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Re: Pakistan’s first sect-free mosque calls for end to discrimination

Peace Shamraz Khan

The fact that in the West all Muslims regardless of their orientation are viewed by the law as minorities. The few mosques that are present are attended by whichever Muslim happens to be living in the area. They are prevented by the law of the country rather than anything else ... that ensures the various sects are not penalised. But the fact remains that each mosque has its set orientation and merely tolerates members of other factions. There is no such thing as a stance-free mosque.

In Pakistan there is no control over the masajid - unless of course the people wish themselves to regulate their affairs. In such a case I still urge the "sect-free" mosque to have a stance but to welcome and tolerate members of other factions, to be genuine and less confusing.

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Re: Pakistan’s first sect-free mosque calls for end to discrimination

I am only bringing here what I myself have heard the khateeb say ... There are at least 1 mosque and one Friday congregation that I have attended in the UK who have and regularly condemn members of some sects to the extent of what I have mentioned above.

I bring my personal testimony to this ... You claim that I have lied ... and that you KNOW that I have lied. Please explain how is it that you KNOW I have lied? Or is the real lie the claim that you KNOW something to be the case when in fact you do not?

Or may be you are saying that the thigh slapping is a lie - the person who said this I do not consider a liar either. However, I have found it difficult to verify either way. That is the reason why I wrote it as I did ... "whether it is true or not" ... see above.

So you are not Shi'a granted ... But please may you provide the hadith/narration regarding the act that I have referred to ... so it can be seen what the basis of this act is ... otherwise there are many Shi'a who will say as you have said ... but no where have I seen the reference to this practice and the reason for it.

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Re: Pakistan’s first sect-free mosque calls for end to discrimination

Why should they have a stance. There is one God and one Quran. Rest are all man made conventions and divisions, better left untaught to the next generation honestly

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Re: Pakistan’s first sect-free mosque calls for end to discrimination

^ Peace sister

You have been around long enough to know that what you are saying above is the process of diluting Islamic knowledge. Many groups have come to do something in good taste but ended up diluting Islam ... including the Aga Khanis, the Submitters, The Pervezis and so on ... It is better to stick to a tradition than to change the tradition - that is the way to prevent innovations ...

From the outset it may sound simpler to just look at the Qur'an ... but the diverse array of opinions by limiting knowledge to the Qur'an is greater than looking at Qur'an alongside hadith. It is because people never really assess things purely on a book, The Qur'an in this case, they will always use their interpretation. The degree of variation of opinion will be higher ... For example it is possible to conclude that there are only 3 prayers that we must pray or 6 prayers from this one Qur'an ... but the number of 5 prayers is orthodox due to hadith.

It is also not entirely possible to exact certain things without looking to the rest of scripture for the clues ... For example will God Fearing people despite being non-Muslim be saved from hellfire? When God passes judgement does that infer a penal sentence or not? All of these are necessary questions and yet may be answered differently based on different understandings or for different circumstances.

Which then leads on to valid differences and invalid differences ...

The problem with the lay person is that they will be unable to detect the valid difference making someone his brother in the religion from an invalid difference that will place him dogmatically at loggerheads ... which does not mean that they treat each other with contempt either. It is more to do with ignorance.

There may be on the odd occasion a belief that arises requiring one to treat another badly ... despite this being contrary to the Islamic ethos ... there may be some people who develop such a stance ... and usually the extremist elements do develop these ... cursing iconic people or killing innocents are a manifestation of this ... But even though some invalid differences may be present some of them do not remove the people from the Islamic body, but merely put them in a category of disagreement.

You will have acceptable difference, unacceptable difference but not quite sectarian positions and then the sectarian position.

Islam must hence be preserved as much as possible so we do not end up being taken by trends in society in any given direction such as what happened with the Jews and Christians. We are warned in this "one Qur'an" about how the Jews lost the spirit of the law and yet Christians lost the law itself. We can't go around tripping up making the same mistakes ... We are Muslim ... we submit ourselves to the authority that is before us ... our scholars should always try to find common ground and the followers should be taught to avoid being judgemental despite the differences ... but the differences themselves can be mercy ... a mercy that does not put restrictions on people for following a particular way ... just as the zealots did ... they thought they were doing the right thing, but that is the basis of an oppressive system.

A multi-approach will confuse the people - they will see contradictions
A single stance taught in the mosque that obliges tolerance and inclusiveness is better than that

I chose my specific set of orientations not because they teach every position ... rather because in their position they treat all who are different from them with respect regardless - as guests. But at the same time is high in internal consistency too.

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Re: Pakistan’s first sect-free mosque calls for end to discrimination

^ Can you, in simple words, explain why I cannot pray while there is another guy in the same mosque praying in a slightly different way?

There are three possibilities:

  1. Both ways of praying (or belief systems) are acceptable.

  2. One way is acceptable and the other is not. How can I be 100% sure that my belief is correct while both of us claim to be following interpretations of Hadith?

  3. Both ways of praying are (or belief systems) un-acceptable. Allah raham karay ham pe.

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Re: Pakistan’s first sect-free mosque calls for end to discrimination

All three of these may be true at different times This is why we choose for ourselves what is the right way according to us ... let others pray the way they want to pray ... but the masjid authority should follow a single way or at least provide the various opinions during their teaching ... Like for example ... 'Asr time begins at first shadow for the Shafi's and second shadow for the Hanafis ... So to make it more acceptable to all they do the 'azdan on the first shadow but do the jamat for 'Asr at the second shadow ...

I want to be clear that I do not advocate segregation of people from different madhabs ... I merely think that a common stance needs to be in place - unless it is made clear what stance is being presented ... Al-Azhar and some other places do have this model too. None of them are called "sect-free" ... the proper term is "inclusive" that some place can be Deobandi inclusive or Deobandi exclusive ... the former allows members of all persuasions to pray there the latter would not ... that is different in my estimation to being "sect-free" - which would essentially be seeing all difference as wrong and hence dilute the matter focusing only on what is universally accepted ... and talk only about matters that can be accepted by all people ... I trust you understand why this approach may be only touching the surface of Islam - which deprives the people from the core inner treasures ... which unfortunately are decorated around the differences of opinion - but there may be a wisdom in that that we fail to comprehend.

Someone once said to me that God should have made all people the same race because then people would not be prejudice towards one another. I said prejudice is our problem - variety is a gift from God. How boring would life be with one type of apple, one height of person, one race or even one gender ... Likewise the cure to sectarian difference is to preach tolerance and acceptance of others while all the same being constant and aligned within oneself - unless there is need to change opinion.

"sect-free" infers that no dialogue should occur
I'm saying recognition should be on the grounds of difference, but behaviour and attitude towards those who we recognise are different should be done on the basis of how we are the same.

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Re: Pakistan’s first sect-free mosque calls for end to discrimination

Recognition is viewing the individual in matters that make them unique
Accepting is to associate yourself with another on some basis that is shared between them

There is no need to remove "recognition" in order to promote "acceptance" - It is quite possible to "accept" yet recognise difference too.

That is mutual respect - this comes from education, not from denying people their right to be different.