Re: Pakistan Punjab vs Indian Punjab
Is this a recent phenomenon or has been like this ever since partition? I understand that in past couple of years Punjabi farmers in Pakistan suffered a major loss due to floods and economic turmoil.
Re: Pakistan Punjab vs Indian Punjab
As a minority in India, Punjabi's in India are far more aware of their distinctiveness, and are more sensitive of the prospect off having their culture diluted and marginalized by greater India. Pakistani Punjabis being an overwhelming majority take their Punjabi-ness for granted as there is no perceived threat to their heritage as such. So while Sikhs feel compelled to protect their heritage, Pakistani Punjabis do not feel the need to do the same. So the hardcore aspect of Indian Punjab stems from the inherent insecurity of a minority culture. Indian Punjabis have to maintain their culture in its most pristine form, otherwise they would lose it. And it didnt help that most Punjabis went to Pakistan, leaving the remaining Punjabis a small minority in greater India..
There is perceived threat and that has been spelled out by many Punjabi intellectuals from time to time. Just read this today by Afzal Tauseef:
“I may not be a Punjabi nationalist in the sense you are but I write at least 35 essays in favour of Punjabi Language every year. After reading all the world’s literature I can proudly say that Punjabi is one of the best languages of the world. However, it seems we are doomed; there is nothing left except pain. We are surrounded by darkness, there is no hope for the light. Rains have disappeared in the skies and river Ravi has dried up. Since long no one has fought the case of our Punjab. Our songs have muted, since long. Punjab is without a guardian (Nah Bullah, nah Waris, Punjab La-Waaris). There was a Punjab once from Delhi to Peshawar and from Shimla to Rajasthan. That was the blessed land, the Punjab of Baba Nanak. Then they snatched our language, our identity and our pride. They talk of dividing Punjab again. Every day new vultures arrive to prey on our land and demand their portions. They [vultures] even start fighting among themselves.”
Re: Pakistan Punjab vs Indian Punjab
I think this is en-routed in basic Agricultural reforms which were seriously taken by India just after partition. While in Pakistan feudal class get all the benefits and farmers are struggling to make both end meets, the case is different in Indian Punjab.
Apart from this, when we (people in other provinces) think / talk about Punjab, there is perception (wrong or right) of Punjabi domination (e.g. Takht e Lahore, etc), but in fact masses in Punjab are as exploited as masses in other provinces. The military (which is otherwise taken as synonym of Punjab) has denied development in rural areas of Pakistani Punjab.
Anthem Press - The Military and Denied Development in the Pakistani Punjab
Re: Pakistan Punjab vs Indian Punjab
^Thank you for bringing that up, I was going to mention that in today's Pakistan, so many people are against Punjabi's. Slowly but surely it is planting dislike of Punjabi culture in the Pakistani youth.
Re: Pakistan Punjab vs Indian Punjab
This might be of your interest.
Re: Pakistan Punjab vs Indian Punjab
Although I agree with her that Punjabi is a beautiful language and is slowly diminishing. I think she was still bitter about the partition and didn’t like splitting of Punjab in anyway which I can understand why but I don’t agree with her on that front.
Re: Pakistan Punjab vs Indian Punjab
Although I agree with her that Punjabi is a beautiful language and is slowly diminishing. I think she was still bitter about the partition and didn't like splitting of Punjab in anyway which I can understand why but I don't agree with her on that front.
I can understand your views, but that generation faced a lot and partition's trauma was larger than life for that generation. That generation somehow realised that divisions only bring problems. I remember reading her autobiography where she refused to visit her homeland after so many years of partition (when she got opportunity to visit India), but she refused at last moment saying that she wanted to keep same image of her homeland intact in her mind. With this mindset, further splitting of homeland was not easy to perceive, when she knew that such division will only benefit elites (as was her first experience)
Re: Pakistan Punjab vs Indian Punjab
The general perception of Indian cuisine remained so. BhangRa is most popular in foreign lands. Punjabi singers like Daler Mehdi and now Honey Singh topping music charts and doing more concerts outside India than any other singer. Though in recent times, people from other communities became active to introduce their cuisine globally, when you say Indian dhaba in foreign lands, most people might get an image of Sardar ji. Recently, I read a review about a book 'Eating India' by a Bengali lady and it says:
Just another incident that I read in Khushwant Singh's book about Aveek Sarkar (A Bengali and owner of the Telegraph). Mr Singh observed that Sarkar never invited anyone to his home and entertained his friends in restaurant. so Mr Singh poked him that 'You Bengalis don't have a cuisine besides machher jhol, rasgollas and msihti. He provoked by saying that though Calcutta got French, Italian, Chinese, Mughlai restaurant, one can't find Bengali cuisine there (in Mr Singh's words at that there were none, but later they introduced). This earned Mr Singh an invitation at Sarkars home where his wife went out of way to prove that there were more Bengali dishes as compared to what Mr Singh thought.
Regarding Hindu Punjabi, Punjabi population including them reaches 27 Million (google says so) so Sikhs forms around 90% of Punjabi population of India. May be Punjabi Speaking Hindus owned Hindi in same way as Pakistani Punjabis owned Urdu.
Very informative.
Re music, I don't know the names of the singers you mentioned. To me Bhangra doesn't represent Indian music or dance. Indian music and dance is far too diverse to be captured by a regional fare.
I had no idea 90 pct of Punjab was Sikhs. So does this mean Hindu Punjabis comprise only 0.2 pct of India? If that is the case, the Kapoors, Malbotras, Khannas and other Hindu Punjabi names have dominated have the largest footprint / impact per capita.
Re: Pakistan Punjab vs Indian Punjab
probably, Hindu Punjabis settled in Delhi and when you talk about Punjab, you don’t hear much about them. As mentioned above, Indian Punjab was further divided to Haryana, Himachal and Punjab, Hindu Punjabis settled in Haryana and Himachal as well. @the kaur can confirm this.
When I further googled, Wiki gives this statistics of Punjab’s population (religion-wise):
[TABLE=“width: 264”]
[TR=“bgcolor: #FCD116”]
[TH=“colspan: 5”]Religion in Punjab[/TH]
[/TR]
Religion
Percent
Sikhism
60%
Hinduism
37%
Islam
1.54%
Christianity
1.21%
Others
0.25%
Distribution of religions
So, Hindu Punjabis are 37% of total population of Punjab 27,704,236. Different sources giving different figures. It might be that Sikh population of India (25 Million) also be dispersed in different regions and many might be settled in Delhi as we read about Sikh killings in Delhi in 1984.
Re: Pakistan Punjab vs Indian Punjab
Ok. That I can believe.
Re: Pakistan Punjab vs Indian Punjab
A day will come when Sikhs would be a minority even in their part of Punjab.
Re: Pakistan Punjab vs Indian Punjab
A day will come when Sikhs would be a minority even in their part of Punjab.
May be there attachment to gurdwaras delay / slow down this process for centuries. But going through their details, I being a Sindhi, realised that sometimes having existence in different parts is more beneficial than being concentrated in one area.
Re: Pakistan Punjab vs Indian Punjab
May be there attachment to gurdwaras delay / slow down this process for centuries. But going through their details, I being a Sindhi, realised that sometimes having existence in different parts is more beneficial than being concentrated in one area.
Agreed but they will lose their identity. Recently I have seen some Sikh couples talking to each other and their kids in Hindi. Strange for me though, but they are getting there.
Re: Pakistan Punjab vs Indian Punjab
Agreed but they will lose their identity. Recently I have seen some Sikh couples talking to each other and their kids in Hindi. Strange for me though, but they are getting there.
But they get their basic education in Punjabi and most of them know how to read and write their language. The case you are referring might be of Sikhs living outside Punjab. This has become a universal phenomenon, even Sindhis of Karachi are following this trend.
Re: Pakistan Punjab vs Indian Punjab
I can understand your views, but that generation faced a lot and partition's trauma was larger than life for that generation. That generation somehow realised that divisions only bring problems. I remember reading her autobiography where she refused to visit her homeland after so many years of partition (when she got opportunity to visit India), but she refused at last moment saying that she wanted to keep same image of her homeland intact in her mind. With this mindset, further splitting of homeland was not easy to perceive, when she knew that such division will only benefit elites (as was her first experience)
I wouldn't say that whole generation of her time shared this point of view. Yes there was a lot of bloodshed during partition and caused a lot of misery but doesn't that emphasize the rocky relationship between 2 religions? I mean why did they start killing each other for wanting to live in their own land if they were living so peacefully among themselves, doesn't add up. Also the feudal lords or elites controlled land even before the partition. Them still having upper hand has to do with a corrupt system not partition. Despite all this, I can still understand her point of view though, it's not easy to accept something that caused many deaths of her relatives.
Re: Pakistan Punjab vs Indian Punjab
I wouldn't say that whole generation of her time shared this point of view. Yes there was a lot of bloodshed during partition and caused a lot of misery but doesn't that emphasize the rocky relationship between 2 religions? I mean why did they start killing each other for wanting to live in their own land if they were living so peacefully among themselves, doesn't add up. Also the feudal lords or elites controlled land even before the partition. Them still having upper hand has to do with a corrupt system not partition. Despite all this, I can still understand her point of view though, it's not easy to accept something that caused many deaths of her relatives.
Not whole but sizable number of people couldn't forget that trauma. This is evident from the literature written over seven decades. Most of them wrote about partition. Be it Amarta Pritam, Bhisham Sahinin, Khushwant Singh, Gulzar on Indian side or Manto, Intezar Hussain, Mustansar Hussain taraR, Qudaratullah Shahab, Kahdija Mastoor, Ustad Daman in Pakistan, no one could come out of this biggest incident of their life.
Re: Pakistan Punjab vs Indian Punjab
Last year @Chicken_Biryani raised similar question.
Re: Pakistan Punjab vs Indian Punjab
Not whole but sizable number of people couldn't forget that trauma. This is evident from the literature written over seven decades. Most of them wrote about partition. Be it Amarta Pritam, Bhisham Sahinin, Khushwant Singh, Gulzar on Indian side or Manto, Intezar Hussain, Mustansar Hussain taraR, Qudaratullah Shahab, Kahdija Mastoor, Ustad Daman in Pakistan, no one could come out of this biggest incident of their life.
Interesting, the only books I have read regarding partition were written by foreigners, British or American to be precise. Mainly because I don't have access to the books you have mentioned above. Yet from my real life experience, I have only met Indians, who were hung over the partition. Haven't met a single Pakistani yet who was against it, even those that lost their relatives during that time. But this is getting a little off topic now.
Re: Pakistan Punjab vs Indian Punjab
From what I know, Pakistani Punjab is a lot bigger both population and geographical wise. Although I agree, Indian Punjabis are more hardcore when it comes to there culture then Pakistani Punjabis but OP what makes you think Indian Punjab is more advanced than Pakistani Punjab? Can you provide some examples.
Look at how they promote their culture
they have their own movie industry lots of punjabi channels
Also in Indian Punjab electricity is free as well as Water
Re: Pakistan Punjab vs Indian Punjab
How about the literacy rate in our Punjab and their Punjab?