Pakistan kills 80 Islamic Madrassa Students

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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Re: Pakistan kills 80 Islamic Madrassa Students

what if this horrendous act of violence forces the tribal people to wage a separatist war against our army, would hawks still advocate use of force? If yes then why India is criticized for human riots violatioins for kashmiris fighting for their independence, isn't India establishing the writ of their government with force (not like our brutal pre emptive strikes)
Bottom line is that these are very delicate matters which are best handled politically through dialogue, military governments know to bend backwards if the opponent is strong or go on killing spree if they are weak and pakistanis
I wonder how come they were preparing to sign a peace treaty in bajore when they claim there was a terrosrist training camp there, makes no sense

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Re: Pakistan kills 80 Islamic Madrassa Students

[QUOTE]
The problem is with specific madrassas that churn out thugs for extremist groups, whether these are groups that did their dirty work internally e.g. sipah e sahaba and lashkar e jhangvi etc or those that are linking up with other groups.

[/QUOTE]

Fraudia,
Ironically, all the madrassahs in Punjab (both rural and urban) and Karachi are creating hatred, to kill shias, to kill sunnis, to kill ahli hadith etc that means killing their own people but no body droped bumbs on them why, I am just hankering for any one logical reason.

[QUOTE]
because in the big cities the terrists hoped they could hide and blend in, and aside from their close pals no one was protecting them. In the tribal regions the neo-tribals are supporting them as a policy. I am sure you know that these new tribal leaders actually systematically killed all the elder tribal leaders who were opposed to their agendas.

[/QUOTE]

Once again arbitrary auguments,
That means, all the madrassahs having local support are to be destroyed and those having no local support are to be given a free rein, irrespective of the fact if they are creating hatred.
In Frontier, most of the Madrassahs are run by Tableeghi Jumaat who are highly peaceful people and are strictly against the voilence. Therefore they have local support as well
By the way can you tell me anyone Madrassah in Punjab where locals are not giving them protection.

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Re: Pakistan kills 80 Islamic Madrassa Students

no, but i believe the government's word on this

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Re: Pakistan kills 80 Islamic Madrassa Students

I think by now it is vividly clear, who launched the attack and who tried to cover them.
As per MNA of Bajawar, US drones came and launched missiles on the schools and they heard big explosions and then US drones went back. After about 20 minutes Pakistani Gunship helicopters appeared and launched missiles on the mountains, however the sound was comparatively too low.
I think it is beyond any doubt now, that US launnched the attaked on the madrassah to kill talibans who were planning to fight against them in Afghanistan.
Presumably, they had contacted Pakistan Army and tried to lauched a combined attacked but probably Army was reluctant in the back drop of expected truce with Taliban. Therefore US drones launched the operation on its own inside Pakistan violating all he, rules and regulations, integrity of Pakistan, probably with the aim to avert the expected truce.
Pakistan, instead of staging protest against US, put the entire blame on the army which is already under fire.
The situation is best explained by the Bajawar MNA (dont remember his name)

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Re: Pakistan kills 80 Islamic Madrassa Students

I think there is some problem with you,
As I already stated that, as per Govt Official statement there were no foreigners in Madrassahs,
Secondly there were not fighting against Pakistan Army or planning any kind of terrorist acitivity within Pakistan rather they were planning operations against America.
Now why the hell you time and again crop up the security of Pakistan.

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Re: Pakistan kills 80 Islamic Madrassa Students

if this is true it is very shameful for Pakistan as a country - first to have such activities in madrissas, next for foreign military to take action and third to then cover it up.

But all this and all other theory is all without proof. All because we forget basic law that if government find peopel doing crime, there is process of law - not just go bomb

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Re: Pakistan kills 80 Islamic Madrassa Students

Just recall those days when you were kid and yours parents used the word "Pathan" as a sign of horror and terror for you.
Just think over the outcome of Fist Afghan War, where out of 16000 British troops only one survived.
Just think over the fate of then Superpower USSR.
After pondering, I am sure you will prefer to commit suicide and dive in 'Ravi' and 'Sutlaj' before giving any such remarks.
Bloody traitors, these tribals have liberated Kashmir for you, they have fought voluntarily with you in both 1965 as well as 1971 war, they have evict Russians from Afghanistan who were just about to enter your land.
And now they have become traitors, I think you are the traitor.

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Re: Pakistan kills 80 Islamic Madrassa Students

The law is only for Punjab and Karachi, for remaining people there are bombs, missiles, artillery, nukes etc

If that is not ture, why the govt is reluctant in allowing journalist to the site?
Why we believe only on official statement, why not on eye witnesses, oh I am sorry they are dubbed as traitors.

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Re: Pakistan kills 80 Islamic Madrassa Students

Not true for Karachi. In Karachi they have raided many places in past for Al-CIAda members, as well as killed many political activists after catching them in 90s.

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Re: Pakistan kills 80 Islamic Madrassa Students


Unfortunately "FATA" areas are "tribal" and do not come under "jurisdiction" of Pakistan laws.

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Re: Pakistan kills 80 Islamic Madrassa Students

and why dont we work towards to making them under pakistani jurisidction

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Re: Pakistan kills 80 Islamic Madrassa Students

KhushaalKhan:
[quote]
The law is only for Punjab and Karachi, for remaining people there are bombs, missiles, artillery, nukes etc
[/quote]

Suppose Pakistan tells American and NATO forces that they cannot control these tribal Taliban and thus, are not responsible of their action.

In consequence, USA starts indiscriminately dropping bombs on tribal areas (as they did in Afghanistan) from 20000 ft, would that be much better?

If in such bombing, all infrastructure and life of innocent tribal get effected, many innocent tribal people die, would it be much better?

If these bombs would have depleted uranium that would start making future newborn in Tribal area deformed and handicap, would that be much better?

Or is it that, these pro-taliban tribal wants that Pakistan defend tribal areas and people there using all what Pakistan have, even if it means, going to war with USA and Europe and thus doing suicide, while they pro-taliban tribal can keep fingering Americans and NATO forces in Afghanistan?

The difference between madrasas of Punjab and Karachi is that, they are not at border of Afghanistan where some madrasas are training and sending trained miscreants across the border, that are becoming threat to Pakistan security (as due to them, Pakistan is not only getting bad name abroad but getting in danger of confrontation with USA and NATO). Due to these idiots, Pakistan is having problems all over the world.

True, madrasas in Punjab and Karachi need to get be dealt, and with time, hopefully Pakistan government would deal with them (InshaAllah). Nevertheless, problems created in madrasas of Punjab and Karachi is affecting Pakistan internal stability but madrasas in FATA are affecting Pakistan security (they are creating causes that could bring sanction on Pakistan as well as confrontation with NATO forces in Afghanistan).

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Re: Pakistan kills 80 Islamic Madrassa Students

Commanders to discuss Bajaur bombing

By Our Reporter
ISLAMABAD, Oct 31: A corps commanders’ conference has been convened on November 7 to discuss national security issues, including Monday’s air strike on Bajaur that claimed 82 lives.

Sources told Dawn that the conference, to be presided over by President Gen Pervez Musharraf, would discuss critical local and international issues, particularly law and order situation in the country and the centre-provinces relations.

The president will brief the conference about latest developments in Pakistan’s relations with the US and India, with special reference to the ongoing open and back channel talks with India. The talks are aimed at removing troops from Siachin and signing an agreement on Sir Creek.

When contacted, military spokesman Maj-Gen Shaukat Sultan confirmed that the conference would discuss the situation arising out of the Bajaur air raid.

However, he said that the conference had been earlier scheduled and it was not specifically convened to discuss missile attack in Bajaur. “But this is an important issue and will be discussed thoroughly”, the ISRP chief said.

He defended the attack and said it was conducted by Pakistani forces and not by US or any other foreign forces. He said that the Bajaur operation was conducted to thwart military training being imparted to militants and claimed that those killed were not innocent people as being described by opposition parties.

He said that the situation in the (Pukhtun tribal areas) would not aggravate due to the air strike as the NWFP governor and others concerned were trying to resolve disputes through dialogue.

“The government has not closed its doors for dialogue”, he said, admitting that military operation was not the best option to resolve issues and that political means had to be adopted to deal with issues.

“You can only buy time by conducting operation against the militants but the best way would be to deal with them politically as has been stated by
President Musharraf,” he said.

“Military solution is not a solution” he said and added that they the best way to deal with the people in the tribal areas was political.
http://dawn.com/2006/11/01/top3.htm

By reading the Musharraf statement carefully and calling Corps Commander Conferecen is an eloquent testomeny that the strikes were launched by US and not Pakistan albeit President denied the assertion.

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Re: Pakistan kills 80 Islamic Madrassa Students

Let the army first bring kashmir siachen in our jurisdiction which is our lost territory, the rulers lose no ooprtunity at appeasing the Indians for a dialogue but use bbrutal force for their own countrymen
The tribals for your information have been autonomous according to an agreement with the government at the creation of pakistan

Desi parenting ish-style
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Re: Pakistan kills 80 Islamic Madrassa Students

Got links to news article where such eyewitnesses reported seeing/hearing Pak Army gunships or US drones or anything similar?

And why automatically side with what Mush's PR machine is saying. Im all for finding out the truth, starting with who raided the so called madrassah. If it indeed was such a madrassah and that it is an established fact that they were anti-pakistan elements working to disrupt peace in Pakistan or terrorists as you would have it, then i fully support this pre-emptive strike.

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Re: Pakistan kills 80 Islamic Madrassa Students

Saleem, you are trying to say that Pakistan is a very weak state and cant afford to deal with US and NATO on its internal issues.
Tomorrow, US and NATO will say that Pak Nuclear arsenals are threat to their security, so what should be Pakistan's stand?
To destroy the nukes by itself or call America to do that.
If Pakistan doesnt stage protest against America on these barbaric strikes, I have all my apprehensions that they may plan to launch similar attacks on Kahota and elsewhere as well.
With the grace of Almighty Pakistan is an independnt state and is not beholden to anyone. There are terrorist activities being planned from far weaker (militarily) countries like Syria and Iran but none can dare to launch operations in their territory. We must prove to be a sovereign state.

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Re: Pakistan kills 80 Islamic Madrassa Students


That can't happen with weapons. Their inclusion under administration was inked/contract with understanding that they will be excluded from Pakistani jurisdiction, so now forcing them to be under our jurisdiction will only revoke the contract which means they will be free to join Afghanistan or be free by themselves which could mean more trouble for us.

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Re: Pakistan kills 80 Islamic Madrassa Students

Khushaalkhan:

[quote]
Saleem, you are trying to say that Pakistan is a very weak state and cant afford to deal with US and NATO on its internal issues.
[/quote]

Did I write that? Can you quote where I write that? I only said that Pakistan is a strong country comparative to their neighbouring adversaries. Regardless, it would be foolish (and idiotic) to say that Pakistan is a strong country when it comes to USA or NATO.

[quote]
Tomorrow, US and NATO will say that Pak Nuclear arsenals are threat to their security, so what should be Pakistan's stand? To destroy the nukes by itself or call America to do that.
[/quote]

Obviously if other countries are going to interfere with Pakistan internal matters, that would effect Pakistan, Pakistan would take stand on that, whoever that country maybe. But then, it does not mean that Pakistan would be able to go to war with USA or NATO unless it is absolutely necessary. Though, that would be different matter that if such would happen, most likely result would be a bloody nose to them (USA and NATO) while complete destruction of Pakistan.

[quote]
If Pakistan doesnt stage protest against America on these barbaric strikes, I have all my apprehensions that they may plan to launch similar attacks on Kahota and elsewhere as well.
[/quote]

If there was no reason for America or NATO to strike Pakistan northern tribal areas, then certainly Pakistan would have done a lot of protest, rather it was possible that Pakistan Airforce may have acted to defend the area. But that would have been the case if there was no insurgency from FATA into Afghanistan and there were no pro-Taliban elements crossing border from FATA to fight American and NATO forces in Afghanistan. Further, instead of FATA being partly autonomous part of Pakistan, it was also under Pakistan government laws. *

[quote]
With the grace of Almighty Pakistan is an independnt state and is not beholden to anyone. There are terrorist activities being planned from far weaker (militarily) countries like Syria and Iran but none can dare to launch operations in their territory. We must prove to be a sovereign state
[/quote]

Well, independence is a very beautiful and precious thing and to safeguard that independence needs brain and brown both. Just imagine how Iraq and Afghanistan lost their independence just because they never valued independence but became ignorant. For Pakistan to have their independence, we have to control those elements in Pakistan who want to interfere in the affairs others (like Afghanistan).

What Musharaf is trying to send message to tribal people is that, Pakistan (and they) has to guard that independence by not asking for trouble for no reasons, else there are many around the world that are much stronger and can destroy Pakistan independence. For independence, we have to learn to live and let live. If those idiots in Tribal areas would start pinching USA and NATO forces in Afghanistan, they would come after them and it would be foolish for Pakistan to gamble Pakistan independence for these idiots.

Independence does not mean that a country is so powerful that no country in the world can harm. Independence does not give a passport to interfere affairs of other countries as people of FATA is trying to do (by going to Afghanistan to fight there), as their actions in international laws become responsibility of Pakistan. Such interference can easily cause independence to erode and thus create security risk for the country, as that could make other countries to believe that Pakistan does not deserve independence and thus would provoke actions from them, collectively or individually (if they are strong, as USA and NATO).

Regardless, what people of FATA are doing, they are only creating security risk for Pakistan and there is no reason for Pakistan to protest on the killing of those that are acting on their own against other country, without the consent of Pakistan government

Note: Kashmir is different issue. Pakistan officially says that Pakistan only give moral and political support to Kashmir while it is Kashmiris fighting for their independence. Pakistan does not recognise Indian held Kashmir as part of India and consider it disputed place (with UN resolution to back that). As for Afghanistan, Afghanistan is an independent country (member of UN) and all countries of the world including Pakistan recognise that.

But it seems that pro-taliban from FATA are also deteriorating the sympathy of the world towards Kashmir freedom fighters as world under the influence of India and Indian western lobby, is trying to link Kashmir freedom fighter with Taliban and Al-qaida.]*

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Re: Pakistan kills 80 Islamic Madrassa Students

saleem, try copying and pasting the text in a Notepad and then paste it here*

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Re: Pakistan kills 80 Islamic Madrassa Students

I'm not siding with him or anyone till I know the full facts (though I think that this place was a training camp and needed to be dealt with). But I know that Mush in charge of Pakistan is a much better deal then Maulvi Liaquat Ali, who would get the whole country bombed to smithereens by now.