Pakistan Islamic or Secular?

Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?

What has secularism achieved in France and Turkey where Muslims are actively discriminated against?

A few of my friends say that they don't advocate 'Indian-style' or 'French style' or 'Turkish style' secularism because these states are not 'religion-neutral' which is the essence of secularism, rather they are either anti-religion or biased towards a particular religion, both of which are against secularism. They say that Pakistan should develop its own unique system of secularism where the state is completely neutral with regards to religion.

I say, it'll never happen, and why not promote a true Islamic system, which accepts difference of opinion amongst the different schools of thought? They say this will never happen either.

At the end of it all, we're all arguing about implementing things that, according to each other, will never work in Pakistan. So if you're going to try anything, why not try the one that is sanctioned by God rather than one which is a man-made system?

Maudidi was one of the most brilliant minds of the Muslim world in the 20th century; may Allah grant him the highest level of Paradise, amin, Allahuma amin!

Your ignorance about him does not bode well for your competence in discussing this matter. I would request you to withdraw yourself from this thread in order to avoid looking like a fool.

If some scholars think they that TV/pictures are haraam, you need to bring out the evidence showing this is not the case. Islam is a religion based on evidence, and ikhtilaaf is an accepted tradition. You cannot dismiss a viewpoint by demonising those who hold it; if you want your side of the argument to be accepted, bring forth your evidences.

Lastly, if you think Qaid-e-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah (r.a.) was a secularist, you need to think again:

1) "This is the flag of Islam, for you cannot separate the Muslim league from Islam. Many people misunderstand us when we talk of Islam, particularly our Hindu friends. When we say this flag is the flag of Islam, they think that we are introducing religion into politics, A FACT OF WHICH WE ARE PROUD. Islam gives us a complete code. It is not only a religion, but it contains laws, philosophy and politics. It contains everything that matters to a man from morning to night. When we talk of Islam, we take it as an all embracing word."

- Quaid-e-Azam; 11th January 1938 at the raising of the Muslim League flag at Gaya in Bihar.

2) "Let us go back to our holy book, the Quran. Let us revert to the *hadith *and the the great traditions of Islam which have everything in them for our guidance if we correctly interpret them and follow our great Holy book, the Quran."
*
- Quaid-e-Azam; 6th March 1946*

Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?

Tasavur:

He and his ilk was also against creation of Pakistan. They used to call Quaide Azam the Kafir e Azam.

Maududi, in fact, used insulting words to describe Quaid-e-Azam and Muslim League and tried to put obstructions in the path of struggle for Pakistan.

http://www.tirmizivlog.com/2010/05/07/quaid-e-azam-muhammad-ali-jinnah-tribute/
In the session in Lahore in 1940, the Pakistan resolution was adopted as the main goal of the party. The resolution was rejected outright by the Congress, and criticized by many Muslim leaders like Maulana Abul Kalam Azad, Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan, **Syed Ab’ul Ala Maududi **and the Jamaat-e-Islami. On July 26, 1943, Jinnah was stabbed and wounded by a member of the extremist Khaksars in an attempted assassination.

http://www.ghazali.net/book1/chapter_2.htm
Why should we foolishly waste our time in expediting the so-called Muslim-nation state and fritter away our energies in setting it up, when we know that it will not only be useless for our purposes, but will rather prove an obstacle in our path."
[The Process of Islamic Revolution, 2nd edition, Lahore 1955, p-37]

A case of Intellectual suicide.
First, where is the evidence it is haraam?

Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?

What does ‘disagreeing with the creation of Pakistan’ have anything to do with being brilliant? It simply shows that Maududi Sahib was initially against the creation of Pakistan because he thought it would weaken the Muslims of Subcontinent. That, my friend, is called difference of opinion. The same difference of opinion which the secular system you propose should value.

It is more telling that Maudidi Saib subsequently changed his mind with regards to Pakistan and launched his own Jamaat in order to participate in the development of this country. I find no issue with that. Qaid-e-Azam was not a holy figure, who was outside criticism; in fact, we as Muslims and Pakistani should always be critical of ourselves and our leaders, because it is through criticism that one finds self-improvement.

You seem to think I wish to have this discussion with you; I don’t, firstly because I do not have enough Islamic knowledge to formulate my opinions on whether TV/pictures are haraam and secondly, because I a not an aalim to be able to decree a fatwa giving a judgement on the issue.

My point was in simply saying you cannot address opinions and issues facing the Muslims of today by insulting the people who hold them; for example, by calling someone “narrow and impractical” you simply make them even more firmer in their beliefs. What you need to do is engage them in their opinions, and bring out the evidences to support your views and argue against the evidence that supports theirs.

Saudi Arabia does this with many of the militants it has caught; it takes them to special rehabilitation centres, and bring in a scholar who persuades the militant through Quranic evidence, and the *Sunnah *of the Prophet (PBUH) what Islam is really about. That is how you deal with ignorant Maulvis. Not by ridiculing them and calling them stupid, but by engaging them in dialogue and saying: “Bring forth your evidence, and I will bring forth my evidence, and we will discuss the issue.”

Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?

Tasavur:

[quote]
It is more telling that Maudidi Saib subsequently changed his mind with regards to Pakistan
[/quote]

After Objective Resolution. And that's what I said in the first post I made.
So if you also agree with me on this then why did you object to that post?
I didn't say whether Maududi was brilliant or not. That was not the point.
And where did I say that he did not have right to disagree?

Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?

I think I misunderstood your quote.

Seemed to me you were suggesting that Pakistan's current negative state could be attributed to Maudidi Sahib somehow 'winning' and QA Jinnah 'losing' and I didn't agree with this perception.

Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?

keep mosque and state separate. this is not the sixth century

Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?

keep this secualr democracy away from pakistan bring nothing but corruption and disaster it is more older than sixth century!!!!

Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?

By that you probably mean sunni shariat law right? There is no such thing. The bharelvis will not agree to a wahabi version of it, and salafis won't follow the "infedelic" shafai version of it etc. The shia and other sunni groups will NOT be allowed to function in sunni shariat law, let alone minority "muslim" groups. We haven't even talked about non muslim pakistanis.

Lets be clear here, there is no "true islamic system" alrighty? The Shariat law version of any group will imply it's "superiority" over others. Secular government implies EQUALITY, if practised right. All groups can practice their own shenanigans, just don't try to impose it on each other.

Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?

You're saying that there is no 'true Islamic system' doesn't quite make it so. If different political parties in a liberal democracy can co-exist with different opinions of how the state should be run, whilst acknowledging that the ideological foundation of the state (i.e. secularity, democracy, liberalism, free-market democracy, call it what you will) cannot change, then various Muslim school of thoughts can manage it also, as they have done so in the past.

A secular system has not worked in Pakistan (and Pakistan prior to 1973 was a secular state), nor has democracy, nor has military dictatorship. It's because these systems are not indigenous to the geo-political realities of the Pakistani state.

I point you to this quote in the Quran:

"Say: 'O People of the Scripture! Come to an agreement between us and you: that we shall worship none but Allah, and that we shall ascribe no partner unto Him, and that none of us shall take others for lords beside Allah.'" --- Quran 3:64

The idea is to apply this 'coming to common terms' to Muslims and accept that the vast majority of Muslims agree on the vast majority of issues. The main issues that Muslims argue on are theological points; was the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) made out of noor, is Allah anthropomorphistic, was the Prophet (PBUH) aware of the ghaib etc, points which have little bearing on how the religion is actively practised. The idea isn't to promote one particular 'brand' of Islam, or Shariah. It's to promote a system which has can accept all of the ikhtilaf in Islam whilst remaining true to the elementary positions that all Muslims agree upon, that God is one, that Muhammad (PBUH) is His Messenger, that Islam promotes redistribution of wealth (zakat), that Islam promotes an interest-free economic system, that Islam promotes accountability and justice for all... etc

What methodology do we use? Well certainly not one of force; instead, we guide the people through education, ensure they understand that establishment of Shariat is a fard and then start from the very ground up. Agree on the commonalities between us, which incidentally are the majority of things required to run a state, the penal codes, the justice systems, the systems of governance. Where the issues are impassable, which are mainly theological points which have little bearing on practical life, agree to disagree. Where the issue is of personal law, one madhab *says one thing,another *madhab says another, you agree that a person should be judged according to the madhab he follows.

To conclude, if we don't have Islamic law, we are left with the alternative of trying to establish a secular, liberal democracy. This isn't ever happening in Pakistan; let's agree on that one point. You may argue that we'll never establish a true Islamic state either. My point is, if we're both aiming for two ideologies which are impossible to establish in Pakistan, why not try for the one sanctioned by the God that the majority of Pakistanis believe in.

Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?

You are WRONG. That is not true. Sunni shariat does NOT allow any freedom to anything non sunni. That goes for any shariat law.

There never has been a secular system in pakistan. Only a mentally handicapped sunni shariat version has been implemented on the country. Where people are labeled kaafir on passports, and have been barred to be witnesses if they are of a certain religious community.

and i present to you the first words in every quran.
Bismillah Hir Rahman Ar Raheem
The idea here is to live in peace and let live. No 7th century shariat (sunni or non sunni) will let you do that.

You are a hell of a dreamer. Sunni shariat will rather burn itself with kerosene then allow for those freedoms. Secularism IS my shariat.

Sunni shariat will never happen completly. Religion in government DIVIDES. It IMPLIES superiority of one belief over another.

Shariat is a FRAUD. And its the only type of system implemented in pakistan. If a saudi style sunni shariat (which is oppressive to everyone except a certain TYPE of sunnism) was implemented in pakistan i would support an armed struggle against the government.

Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?

http://dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2010\09\14\story_14-9-2010_pg3_2
IEW: Stoning to death* —Ishtiaq Ahmed*****
The task in hand for modern Muslims is to separate the spiritual, moral and ethical message of Islam from penal laws reflecting the sensibilities of tribal society of the seventh century

The well-known English journalist Robert Fisk has presented a detailed investigative report, ‘The crimewave that shames the world’ in The Independent, September 7, 2010, about so-called honour killings. Not surprisingly, the highest incidence of such crimes is in the Muslim world, though even some non-Muslim Middle Eastern minorities and Hindus in India practise it. What I found particularly shocking was that after murdering a daughter or sister, a Muslim culprit can walk away scot-free because the Islamic law of qisas (retaliation) allows heirs to pardon the criminal. Thus, other family members can pardon the offender. All such relics of barbarism have to be done away with. Already in the 19th century, Maulvi Chiragh Ali wrote that the Quran is not a book of law. Justice Munir has also advanced similar arguments. Privately, most of the educated Muslims I talk to agree with me that hudood laws, blasphemy laws and many other such laws are anachronisms that have no place in the 21st century. More such voices need to be heard in the public space.

Please read the above article.

Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?

This article can be answered soon as you get to last paragraph.

It starts off discussing issue of honour killings which are barbabric no doubt, all the place where these killings take place the law of the lands is secular. Honour killing cannot be found in islamic laws or any texts nor is it permitted by islam.

So at end of article how can they attack the quran and islam in general when it is the non implementation of islam that allows such disgraceful things like honour killing to take place and criminal who do it get away?
what has quran got to do with honour killings? if it has nothing to do with it why is it included in the article?

Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?

Pakistan is the worlds first Islamic Republic and as such it is here to stay.

For those wise fellows among us who say Islam and Politics should not be intertwinned and should be kept appart as is the case in most Western societies i must point out a few clear cut facts that cannot be argued.

Firstly Islam is the only of the three Abrahamic faiths that upon it's creation sparked not only what we would later call a revolution.

Islam since the moment Hazrat Muhammad, peace be upon him, walked into Medina had become a civilization. Whilst many will be quick to point out civilizations and systems existed before Islam, neither of the other Abrahamic fiaths sparked thier own cultural revolutions but rather built on others...

Namely the Jews used the Egyptian foundations and the Christians used the Roman ones. Islam used no foundations it's sparked a whole new culture and way of life which not only destroyed the previous foundations but built something new right out of them.

Unlike Christianity which had to recieve the support of Roman emperors before it could rise to prominence. Islam rose entirely by it's own power it was as historians have said an unstoppable revolution not just for the Arab world but far beyond.

Thus from almost it's very inception the Muslim faith has been political, it actually became less so over time not more.

Now as for the Islamic state, unless your a Salafist you will argue that there are many definitions of this loose term but all agree on one central point that Islam will be the core principal of that state.

Salafists would argue that only the true Caliphate as seen in the Rashidun era would be acceptable. This reasoning is not entirely wrong however over the centureis Islam has adapted to many innovations and thus to encorporate them the principles have changed.

While i personally do not advocate the type of state that the far right want which would be along the lines of the Taliban regime or that of Saud, i do prefer something in the middle ground that would be along the lines of the perfect Hanafi developed system of the Turks akin to what many know as the Millet system.

While some will criticise it, the fact is this system proved to be the most succesfull of Muslim governance which was used from Turkey to Indonesia.

Pakistan is not even anywhere near a perfect example of a Muslim state, but then that is not the case anywhere... and certainly not in the hypocritical state of Saudi which i fail to even recognise.

Right now my priority as a Pakistani is to ensure the survival of my nation, with regards to current events this is number one right now.

However It is possible or at least in my opinion that given a chance only by a revolution, a complete change of system can we progress.

I am not assuming we conjure up some sort of bloody coup that would be most negative to the cause... rather a steady and prolonged change in thinking from a grassroots level.

Islam as a faith has no flaw just like many other faiths.... I no longer hold the belief that it's mans belief that is the issue in many of our battles today rather the state of mans mind.

While some will be quick now to dismiss me as a madman talking nonsense the fact is Islamic or secular the system that works is the system that succeeds in persuading the people that it has worked.

The cold war is a brilliant example of this sort of mind game.

Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?

Once again, your saying something doesn’t make that the case; you are treating Shariah as something that is set in stone, when in fact, it is a fluid and dynamic thing, which can change from generation to generation depending on contemporary realities. The primary aim of Shariah is the practical implementation of Allah’s laws which we find in the Quran and the *Sunnah *of the Prophet (PBUH). It is obligatory on Muslims to rule themselves by Allah’s laws, and the freedoms and restrictions contained therein. It isn’t a question of 'should we implement *Shariah *or not?'because that particular debate isn’t even on the table; Islam is not just a personal faith; it is a social and political order, and requires its believers to implement its principles in government, in economics, in foreign policy, in taxation, in hudood etc.

Secondly, there is no such thing as ‘Sunni Shariat’ - you speak from ignorance if you think that’s the case. There is simply Shariah and different scholars have different opinions on how different aspects of Shariah should be implemented, and an Islamic state would tolerate those differences. As I said earlier, Muslims agree on those aspects of Islam that are required to run a state; the differences of opinion are primarily in theological debates and personal law, both of which are outside the remit of the State.

An Islamic State has an ethos of small government; people think that under Shariah, the State would be able to dicate ever minute aspect of their lives when this is simply not the case. A ‘moral/religious/ethical’ police such as the Muttuwa in Saudi Arabia is something that is completely out of the question; it wasn’t around in the time of the Prophet (PBUH) and a true Islamic State wouldn’t have it around now.

Actually, prior to 1973, Pakistan ***was ***a secular state; it did not have a State religion. Alchohol was sold freely and publicly; no one had to sign a declaration on a passport application against Mirza Ghulam Ahmed being an imposter (which he was, but that’s a debate for another time). The laws of the State were not required to be in conjunction with the values of any particular religion. That is the essence of secularity.

Also, what’s with this ‘Sunni Shariat’ business you keep on mentioning? The 1973 Constitution which made Islam the State Religion was introduced by Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto who was a Shia’. Qaid-e-Azam was a Shia’. Benazir was a Shia.’ In fact, half of Pakistan’s leadership was Shia’ and none of them suffered under this so called ‘Sunni Shariat’.

You seem to be a Shia’ who thinks that Pakistan is anti-Shia’, which it isn’t, or you are an Ahmedi, in which case I agree with you, you have genuine grievances against the State of Pakistan. You could also be an Indian, or a Western-born Pakistani who knows very little about Pakistan, because you have posted some things which show a lack of knowledge about even the very superficial things (i.e. that Pakistan only became non-secular after 1973). You should realise though that a true Islamic System in Pakistan would respect the non-Muslim minorities more than a democratic system (which we have) can ever do.

Those words mean ‘I begin in the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful’ - and I’m glad you mention that, because every thing a Muslim does should be for Allah, including how he rules and governs himself.

The reason you feel that Shariah will not ‘let live’ is because you have a lack of knowledge about what exactly Shariah is. I would recommend you to read this article by Professor Sherman Jackson: What Is Shariah and Why Does It Matter

The fact is that Shariah makes it an obligation upon Muslims to protect the rights of the non-Muslims in an Islamic State. Non-Muslims would be equal citizens of the State and protected under the law. The Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) said: “Someone who unjustly kills a non-Muslim living in an Islamic State (a dhimmi) cannot get a whiff of Heaven…" He (PBUH) also said: **“Whoever oppresses a dhimmi or burdens a weight over him more than he can carry, I will be his enemy."

As for Islamic Law being 7th century, well Islam, as a codified religion also began in the 7th Century, so are you here to argue against its veracity? Just because something is old, doesn’t make it *untrue. ***Islam protected rights, particularly for women, which only came about in the West in the 20th century. *For example, right to land ownership, right to do business, right to own property, right to marry whosoever she wanted, rights after divorce etc etc so you need to get out of this mentality that Shariah is some pre-dated or anitquated thing. The fact is, it was a lot more forward thinking and progressive in the 7th century than Western law is even today.

Shariah *itself employs mechanisms to allow Muslims to adapt to the changing circumstances around them; for example, just because 7th Century Muslims traveled on camels, doesn’t mean we have to either. You seem to believe that Shariah entails a literalist reading of the primary texts, when in fact, ijma and qiyas also play a huge role. It isn’t just about following to the letter what our Prophet (PBUH) did; it’s about trying to adapt the underlying principles of his actions to today’s society.

A Muslim believing in secularism as a superior form of governance is basically admitting that human law supercedes God’s Law. Secularism restricts Islam to the category of a personal faith, when Islam is just as much a social and political order also. Anyone promoting secularism in Pakistan is essentially asking people to reject one half of their faith, the half that calls for collective, public responsibilities from the Muslims. That is not the correct path. Allah says:


“This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favour unto you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.” — ***Quran 5:3

By setting aside their public duties, Muslims would be setting aside a part of their completed faith, making it incomplete and by extension, imperfect.* Shariah* is just as much of an obligation as prayer and zakah, you need to understand this.

As for whether or not Shariah will allow these ‘freedoms’ as you call it… Well, it already allows these freedoms. You need to look at the Charter of Medina (i.e. the meesaq-e-Medina) to see just how secular *Shariah *really is. Some salient excerpts (from wikipedia):

** Non-Muslim members have equal political and cultural rights as Muslims. They will have autonomy and freedom of religion.
** Non-Muslims will take up arms against the enemy of the Ummah and share the cost of war. There is to be no treachery between the two.
** Non-Muslims will not be obliged to take part in religious wars of the Muslims.

This idea that Shariah would force people to do things is based on ignorance and lack of knowledge.

There are many hadith that mention the Khilafah will be re-established before the end-time, and the Khilafah has the Islamic obligation to rule by *Shariah. *So your claim is fallacious.

As for superiority in beliefs, Islam *is *superior to any man-made laws. I have no shame in saying this; Islam protects the rights of minorities and vulnerable groups like women better than any man-made laws can. Our injunctions come straight from God, so we cannot change them; but in a secular society, you realise that the mechanisms are in place for society to democratically decide that (for example) black people should be made slaves? The emancipation proclomation in America could be withdrawn, Congress could pass laws delcaring that Slavery should be brought back into law, the President could sign any such laws into power; the Supreme Court could be filled with like-minded judges and all of this could be done legally and lawfully.

So please, spare me this tirade of how a secular system can ‘protect’ people; if you’re talking about ‘superiority of beliefs’ doesn’t a secular, liberal democracy also assume superiority over a communist one? Point being, all systems believe in their superiority over any other.

Mind your words carefully; if you think Shariah is a fraud, then you are calling Islam a fraud. Whilst you may think that, be aware that the majority of people in Pakistan, whom you seem to have such concern for, believe in Islam to be the truth.

As for whether Shariah is implemented in Islam, Pakistan is as much an Islamic State as Saudi Arabia is a liberal democracy. Pakistan may call itself Islamic, but that doesn’t make it so; our foreign policy, economic system, domestic policies, systems of governance, taxation systems, justice system, penal codes etc are not Islamic, hence we are not Islamic, and hence we do not have Shariah.

Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?

^ In your dream state based on your shariah, would Ahmadis be given freedom to practice their faith freely without any danger of hanging sword over their heads of XX laws. Will they be allowed to define their own beliefs and not the state. Will they be given rights of a common citizen? doesn't matter whether you call them kafir or not but will your state not force them to act like a kafir?

Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?

How would a so called Islamic state deal with terrorists such as al Qaeda, laskar e toiba & taleban?

Would you call Iran an Islamic state?

Which country would you call is closest to being your view of Islamic state?

Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?

Firstly, it isn't my dream state, nor my Shariah. I'm not a Mirza Ghulam Ahmed that I come up with my own deen =) Shariah is a tradition that is inseperable from Islam and certainly doesn't belong to any one person, just as democracy doesn't belong to any one person.

With regards to your question:

1) Ahmedis will be allowed to practise their religion freely, have their own place of worship, meet, have religious events etc. They will, however, not be allowed to openly preach their faith, which would stand true with any other religion. It's similar to laws in Pakistan which forbid the preaching of material which threatens the ideological foundations of the state (i.e. the two-state theory); similarly, an Islamic State would not permit speech which threatens the foundations of the state. That doesn't mean that differences of opinions wouldn't be tolerated. They would, but these differences must be contained within the ambits of the ideological foundation of the state.

2) Ahmedis will be allowed to define their own beliefs, yes. The silly laws Pakistan has with regards to Ahmedis (e.g. them not being allowed to say 'Asaalamu Alikum') would also not exist.

3) All Ahmedis, other non-Muslims groups as well as Muslims citizens will be treated equally under the eyes of the laws. Non-Muslims would be exempt from many of the obligations that are placed on Muslims. For example, the laws under Shariah relating to personal law do not even apply to non-Muslims. For the most part, non-Muslims would enjoy more freedom and protection under an Islamic State than the system currently in place in Pakistan. That protection is incumbent upon the Muslims because it is an injunction straight from God, so we cannot change it. In a secular society, though, you realise that the mechanisms are in place for society to democratically decide that (for example) black people should be made slaves? The emancipation proclomation in America could be withdrawn, Congress could pass laws declaring that Slavery should be brought back into law, the President could sign any such laws into power; the Supreme Court could be filled with like-minded judges and all of this could be done legally and lawfully.

4) Your last question doesn't make sense: kafir *refers to anyone who rejects Islam. In that sense, all non-Muslims are *kafirs (it simply means 'non-believer); it isn't mean to be an offensive term but rather a description. So I'm not sure what you mean when you say whether the state would 'force them to act like a kafir'...?

Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?

One of the main reasons that Muslim governments have been unsuccessul against militant groups like Al-Qaeda and Taleban is because they have no legitimacy in the eyes of their people; they are seen as sold-out Western stooges. In an Islamic State, the ruler would have legitimacy and authority. Any groups which then work against the state can be successfully dealt with, and all Muslims are under an obligation to fight them, should diplomacy fail.

The Quran says: "... *Fitna *(tumult and oppression) is worse than killing..." (2:191) and hence, an Islamic State has the religious permission to fight against any group spreading fitna and disruption in the land.

No. Iran does not have the governmental structure, economic system, foreign policy or domestic policies that are concordant with an Islamic State. Just for example: their state religion is Shia' Islam which right away dismisses the pluralism and tolerance towards various differences of opinion I've been talking about. Most of Iran's actions have entirely selfish purposes, and though they may try to disguise this under the guise of Islam, that is not the case.

There is none in the world.

Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?

^ Thanks for straight unambiguous clarifications. I mostly agree I think but a follow-up:

On #1, if in an Islamic state, the ruler would take the fight to and deal with the terrorists, isn''t that exactly what govt of Pakistan did (though very late) in SWAT etc? Even today aren't the drones etc part of that same fight? So what does govt of Pakistan have to do to gain the legitimacy?

Secondly, on #3, what iyo has led to 'none in the world'? As a matter of info, when would you consider was the last one (I just want to read up on that)

Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?

it is. that’s why we are having this debate, beta. my point is you are talking about implementing a sunni shariat on everyone, in the guise of “real islamic” government. that’s laughable. and that’s the problem with your theory. Your religious view point will NOT be forced upon everyone else.

[quote=“Tasavur, post:53, topic:229268”]

Secondly, there is no such thing as ‘Sunni Shariat’ - you speak from ignorance if you think that’s the case.\quote]
there is. it is what you are proposing. :slight_smile:

no actually, pakistan was NEVER a truly secular country. Its name was stripped from DOMINION of Pakistan to ISLAMI JAMHORIAT PAKISTAN in the early fifties, thereby ridding it of anything secular. and selling alcohol doesn’t make it a secular country. That is a very weak argument.

why, its what you want to impose on everyone on pakistan. but you deny deny deny. :slight_smile:

aaah, the shia/qadiyani card, if i don’t agree with sunni shariat. dude, you are from england. it has a very extremist pakistani population, so I completely understand your extremist views. I don’t respect them, but i understand them. You are raised in a very narrow minded environment, and you are a product of it. It’s ok, I completely understand your argument through and through.

a flawed argument. i never said such thing. sunni version of islamic shariat is not needed by any country today. You may live in a perfect world, but you don’t understand that imposing your old sunni shariat laws will cause hatred for your beloved scholars.

I understand its what have been taught, but I hate to break it to you: It ISNT THE CASE. God isn’t going anywhere. That is a bogus argument. Secularism = respect for everyone and anyone, DESPITE what their faith is. If you practice ahmedism and call it islam, TOO BAD. There is nothing a wahabi can do about it. If a girl wants to go to school. TOO BAD. There isn’t a thing anyone can do about it. :slight_smile:

aah, i see. how do you explain islam spreading in the secular west?

lol you have wayyyyyyyy too much time on your hands kid.