Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?
I am sorry but how do you equate secularism with Islam? They are opposites of each other. In Islam is there is no separation of mosque and state.
Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?
was that your original point? im unsure what you mean by cannot. religion is used to define political structures in some places by some sects today and throughout history, but i wouldnt want that done in Pakistan.
Okay. Then what is the Pakistani Government? Is it Wahabi? Shia? Sunni?
Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?
pakistan must be secular where everyone has freedom of their religion and worship.
jab tak yeh islam ko log siyasat kay liyay istamaal kertay raha pakistan kay halaat theek nahin hoon ghay.
Zia chand haftoon kay liyay hakoomat main aiyay aur Islam nafaz kertay kertay saloon kay saal baad chalay ghaiy.
Pakistan ko aik achee aur sahi jamhooriat chahiyay jis main jo bhi party vote kay zariay jitay should be allowed to rule pakistan. kaw wo Islami party ho ya social.
Pakistan needs real change now
Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?
So funkymonkey right now Christians and Hindus can not practice their faith? Odd. Considering there are active churches in Pakistan that hold mass every Sunday without a problem.
And you know the beauty of all these complaints. The current government structure is by no means religious.
Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?
Okay. Then what is the Pakistani Government? Is it Wahabi? Shia? Sunni?
its a mix of Islamic and secular, the Islamic elements are Sunni.
Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?
Indulge me, which aspects of the government structure are Sunni?
Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?
lets see. two things off the top of my head, blasphemy laws and zakat laws are explicitly rejected in theory and practice by shias.
consider the blasphemy laws. 298A states:
Now note that shias do have issues with a particular wife and several Caliphs and companions, with frequent desires and actual enactment of those desires to defile those sacred names. the very term ‘khulafa e rashidin’ is a sunni term, amongst shias there is no such thing as a khalifa e rashid.
Similarly the Zakat and Ushr laws have a sunni background on what the zakat will be applied to and how it will be taken and distributed, which ultimately resulted in shias getting an exemption from the mandatory deduction.
Another one is laws governing Talaq. The text described here describes the sunni procedure for talaq (bolded). shias have a more formal process for it.
Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?
Pakistan is supposed to be an islamic state but is clear it is a secular state and it is not working just look at pakistan today it is getting worse and worse every year.
I also do not agree with unintelligent mullahs gaining power if pakistan is going to be islamic. The people who take over need to proove they have the ability to run a state and take care of people.
Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?
Ths is hardly an argument that the laws are sunni based.
Both laws you quoted are “all inclusive laws” rather, nothing wrong with that. What you are thinking is that there has to be just one sect based laws, which cannot be done in Pakistan.
You yourself mentioned Shais are exempt from zakat rules, which is a good thing.
Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?
Ths is hardly an argument that the laws are sunni based.
Both laws you quoted are "all inclusive laws" rather, nothing wrong with that. What you are thinking is that there has to be just one sect based laws, which cannot be done in Pakistan.
I didnt say there was anything wrong with it, just that the laws were based on sunni mazhab. I dont see how you can dispute that, given that "khulafa e rashidin" is a sunni term, likewise the specifics of the talaq and zakat laws are derived from sunni fiqh.
[quote]
You yourself mentioned Shais are exempt from zakat rules, which is a good thing.
[/QUOTE]
Fact that shias are exempt doesnt negate the fact that the laws and government agencies that do exist are based on sunni fiqh. for that matter christians are exempt from zakat laws too!
Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?
Pakistan should be a secular state. Pakistan's population has too many religious divisions to implement any form of shariah here.
My personal view is that shariahs as defined by most of our clerics are too narrow and impractical today. Many of them even consider TV and pictures to be haram.
Pakistan can not give its future in the hands of Talibanic reactionaries.
To me one of the most unfortunate time of Pakistan's history was when Objective Resolution passed the parliament. That's when Quaide Azam lost and Maududi won.
Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?
^pakistan is already a secular state and it is not progressing at all it is going backwards.
Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?
I didnt say there was anything wrong with it, just that the laws were based on sunni mazhab. I dont see how you can dispute that, given that "khulafa e rashidin" is a sunni term, likewise the specifics of the talaq and zakat laws are derived from sunni fiqh.
Fact that shias are exempt doesnt negate the fact that the laws and government agencies that do exist are based on sunni fiqh. for that matter christians are exempt from zakat laws too!
I did not mean to have a long discussion in this thread just pointed out something which was not mentioned by you in good faith. With all due respect, you conveniently missed the point of law being 'all inclusive'.
Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?
^pakistan is already a secular state and it is not progressing at all it is going backwards.
The above two statements are unrelated.
Pakistan is neither a secular country nor so-called "shariah" based.
Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?
The above two statements are unrelated. Pakistan is neither a secular country nor so-called "shariah" based.
with
-republican political system
-Presidential decrees and Parliamentary
-capitalist economic system
- judcial system which is not based on islam
i could go on but to claim pakistan is not secualr is silly if its not secular than what else is it?
Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?
I did not mean to have a long discussion in this thread just pointed out something which was not mentioned by you in good faith. With all due respect, you conveniently missed the point of law being 'all inclusive'.
with due respect, you seem to attach some sort of special meaning to the word 'all inclusive' that i am probably missing. the only thing at issue is that i claimed that Pakistan has a mix of secular law with some islamic elements, which are derived from sunni fiqah. he asked for elements that are sunni based, I pointed some out.
if you wish to contribute usefully to the discussion please point out whether I am incorrect in my assertion that the islamic elements that i pointed out are not based on sunni mazhab. pointing out the coverage, whether all-inclusiveness or whether certain sects have exemption does not add to the discussion.
Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?
Pakistan was never a Islamic State, and neither it will be. A fine example will be Sufi of Swat - the security Establishment of Pakistan make an example out of swat not because it was under lunatics but also a message to all the hard core monkeys we will not tolerate Shariaah or any system which is based on it. Period.
I am infidel, starting now. 
Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?
Then this, please read specially for the lovers of Nazria-e-Pakistan by Ayaz Amir
Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?
its neither secular nor islamic.. Pakistan and Islam are like apples and oranges. lol
Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?
In the West, there are differences of opinion on how democracy should be implemented, yet no one uses this as an argument against democracy itself; difference of opinion enriches a concept; it doesn’t detract from it. In the UK alone, we have Conservatives, Social Democrats, English Nationalists, Royalits, Christian Parties (etc) which all have a different idea of how to run democracy, but they all agree that democracy should be the foundation of the British state.
So I say, as Muslims, can we all at least decide upon the fact that we want to live our lives according to Islam and govern ourselves according to Islam, and everything else can follow after this first elementary pre-requisite has been met?
Believe it or not, with regards to foreign policy, economic policy, taxation, penal code, accountability, justice system (or in other words, the public sphere)… most of the schools of thoughts are in agreement. You need to realise Islam has very few doctrinal splits (Shia vs Sunni being the major one). It also only the smaller personal fiqh issues such as salaah, family law, marriage and various theological concepts that the difference of opinion arises. **Remember, the state would **not interfere in these issues. These issues would be decided at a very local level.
I refer you to this:
In brief, 200 leading Islamic scholars from around the world unanimously issued a ruling on three fundamental issues:
- Who is a Muslim?
- Is it permissible to declare someone an apostate (takfir)?
- Who has the right to undertake issuing fatwas (legal rulings)?
You see? It shows that Muslim scholarship *can *address the major issues facing the Ummah, if given the chance, even if the solution is as something as simple as ‘let’s agree to disagree.’ An Islamic state will never demand one interpretation of Islam - instead it will promote a pluralistic system which accepts difference of opinion as valid, just as Western democracy does.