Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?
yea it would. the notion of 'One' is 'One God'. demigods that run affairs and participate in creation/maintenance of creation impact that notion.
Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?
Exactly so the view that Hazart Ali was actually up there would be Shirk and thus make the idea invalid according to Islam.
Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?
For you and me and a certain proportion of shias. Not to the cat people themselves.
Me having an opinion does not settle the difference of opinion, nor does it change the status of the debate. you and I can settle other issues pertaining to tawhid... intercession... and other issues like the finality of the prophet, who should have succeeded the Prophet after his death without really impacting the fact that there are different groups of Muslims with differing opinions on these topics, and these differences of opinions lead to differing practices and actions.
Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?
You know that is a Strawman. The edicts of Islam do not change to fit the view point of a certain individual or people. Shirk is Shirk. And there are cults that are declared heretic for that very reason. Regardless of personal opinion that is fact. If your opinion does not change the status of the debate then there is no need to have an opinion at all.
Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?
Why is core theology even being discussed here? Both of you have deviated from the point that I think ravage had tried, somewhat unclearly to make.
Which is that different groups of Muslims adhere to different shariats, through they adhere to the same theologies.
Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?
Fair enough and that leads back to my original question how do those different groups of Muslims and their views on Islam become political definitions of governance and government structures?
Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?
The cults that have been declared heretic are usually powerless. grow big enough and nobody can call you a heretic. conversely previously dominant sects have been subsequently supressed then declared heretic (such as Mutazili, who had been running their own heresy camps. or the fatimids). heresy is a comforting concept but its pretty malleable.
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The edicts of Islam do not change to fit the view point of a certain individual or people. Shirk is Shirk. And there are cults that are declared heretic for that very reason.
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No state has declared shias heretics, even those who believe this hadis in the particular-cat sense.
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If your opinion does not change the status of the debate then there is no need to have an opinion at all.
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I dont believe your opinion changes the status of the debate either. You're only one person CM.
Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?
Fair enough and that leads back to my original question how do those different groups of Muslims and their views on Islam become political definitions of governance and government structures?
because the different groups of Muslims with different views of Islam dont confine their differences to non-political/non-governmental spheres.
one example.. are you aware of the concept of wilayat-e-faqih
Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?
Why does the state have to declare them heretics for the truth to be accepted? Shirk is shirk. No changing that in the eyes of Allah.
Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?
because the different groups of Muslims with different views of Islam dont confine their differences to non-political/non-governmental spheres.
are you aware of the concept of wilayat-e-faqih
So? For every sect in Islam there is a different political form of government and governance?
Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?
and since none have access to the eyes of Allah we'll have to wait a bit for 'the truth' to be accepted. why I deny any pov a privileged position it is merely because I cant presume to give an individual's belief/analysis Godly certification.
Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?
So? For every sect in Islam there is a different political form of government and governance?
I cant say for every. But many, yes.
Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?
Good to know. We should tell the Malaysians and Indonesian governments they are in fact sects in Islam. 
Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?
dont be obtuse. different sects have different political/government structures. doesnt make the governments themselves sects.
Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?
Fair enough and that leads back to my original question how do those different groups of Muslims and their views on Islam become political definitions of governance and government structures?
Previous Islamic states in the era that followed the splintering of Islamic beliefs operated solely on the basis of might - whichever group took power imposed their particular version of shariah on others.
Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?
mAd_ScIeNtIsT that applies to history through out the world. Not just with Islamic states. It applies to the Greek cities as well as rival empires. But that does not mean that every sect in Islam has a different form of government and rather that sects in Islam can not be used to define the current form of political and governance structures in the Islamic world.
In the case of Saudi Arabia yes it relevant. In the case of Pakistan, Egypt, Malaysia, Indonesia it is not. Islam is a way of life. Accepted. But that does not mean that every government in the Islamic world can be defined in terms of religion. That is just retarded.
Ravage so you essentially agree with my original point that religion can not be used to define political structures.
Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?
Certain type of Islam is a hindrance. now see, there is no one Islam, is there? lets say pakistan becomes a truly islamic republic. what islam are we going to follow? sunni or shia or ahmadi? wahabi, deobandi, or hanafi? are we going for a Saudi arabia like shariah or Iran like shariah or Taliban like sharia? All these 3 groups seem to think they have the right kind of islamic govt. so tell me, what islam are u proposing?
And just to keep it all relevant, this is the original post I responded to. I have placed in bold the area of concern.
Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?
was that your original point? im unsure what you mean by cannot. religion is used to define political structures in some places by some sects today and throughout history, but i wouldnt want that done in Pakistan.
Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?
Whatever i have read and heard from people, even the proponents of a religious state have little idea what exactly are the changes it will bring about, other than implementation of Hijab and prayer.
Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?
^^ may be for some Pakistanis, but not for Pakistan...
Secularism is the best thing not only for pak, but also islam. Anyone who believes otherwise is ignorant. You neither understand what secularism is, nor do u understand its place in pak. Education may change peoples mind, but jahaluth is the state religion rt now, so don't expect much from the average pakistani.