Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?
one issue at a time. since you agree that these are different religious entities, and I would add to it that each entity regards itself as Islam-proper, would you agree that the form of Islam varies in every way that the sects vary?
Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?
No because as we discussed this before Islam is Islam. These sects have varying interpretations of what they believe is right. They do not differ on the core foundations and the main principle belief of Islam. Remember to be a Muslim you must recite the Kalma with sincerity and believe in the five pillars. Oh yes and believe in the Quran.
We already went over this with the moderate Muslim debate.
Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?
[quote]
No because as we discussed this before Islam is Islam. These sects have varying interpretations of what they believe is right. They do not differ on the core foundations and the main principle belief of Islam.
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This is plainly misrepresentation. They do not merely have varying interpretations of what they believe is right, they have varying intepretations on what they believe is Islam. Very often they will regard each other as not being Muslims, and therefore have atleast a few more criteria than Kalma and the five pillars. You are at best one more school of thought amongst all of them with a particular definition of Muslim.
You do not get to make the determination for the rest of us on what Islam is. And whats more you do not get to speak as if what you believe is obviously true.
Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?
Ravage you do realize you are making the same mistakes as the moderate Muslim thread. You are making assumptions about a people you do not know or understand. But lets do this dance again:
What are the core foundations that define a Muslim? Since we are discussing how different sects view Islam, lets start off with the basic foundations and definitions of what it means to a be Muslim. So what are the core beliefs? I will let you define them since I don't get to determine for the rest of youse.
Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?
the core foundation that is shared across all Muslims I would guess would be in the unity of God and the prophethood of Muhammad. with the little caveat that often according to some sects, other sects have an imperfect belief or application of either the unity of God (takfir based on shirk) or the prophethood of Muhammad.
Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?
Okay we agree on that and All sects of Islam believe in this. Because it has been stated in the Quran and by the Prophet himself in the Last Sermon. In that regard all of them are Muslim and do not have different views on what constitutes Islam.
Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?
so if a certain sort of shia believes that when the Prophet when to mairaaj he saw Hazrat Ali speaking in the voice of God, is that compatible with what you believe to be the unity of God?
Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?
What does the form Allah take have to do with his Oneness? So if Allah took the form of a cat, that would affect his Oneness?
Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?
that may sound like a Christian argument of the trinity. but you understand that 'unity' is an imperfect translation of the word tawhid, which also implies for some sects a complete impossibility of God taking on the form of His creation.
Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?
That was my first comment it does sound like the concept of the Trinity and more importantly it sounds like the basis of the Alwaiti faith in Syria. Who are defined as a heretic cult like Ahmadis. Tawhid means One. Not unity.
Remember from the Quran which states that:
Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?
Stop splitting hairs. From the wiki article:
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Islamic intellectual history can be understood as a gradual unfolding of the manner in which successive generations of believers have understood the meaning and implications of professing God's Unity.
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The Alwaiti faith is defined as a heretic cult. Are shias defined as a heretic cult? For some, yes, for most, no. And this is what matters in this discussion.
Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?
Reread my post. I Edited with a quotation from the Quran. I guess quoting the Quran now is splitting hairs. Like I said before ravage. You don't like it when we get down to core definitions because then your views can not be upheld.
There is no concept of Unity. There is only one. That is Allah. That is the basic core foundation from the Quran.
Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?
No, what is splitting hairs is you picking on the word unity. Anyway coming to the Quranic text, the shia I spoke of finds a way to make his understanding of God's immanence, His being the first and the Last work with the Mairaj story and many similar instances of what certain sunnies would find very shirk-y.
Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?
That brings me back to my original question. If Allah took the form of a cat when he speak to the Holy Prophet would that impact Tawhid?
Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?
and not to make this a simple shia-sunni thing, for many to believe in Tawhid is to deny intercession, thus causing allegations of shirk on sufies and barelvies in some quarters.
http://www.pwhce.org/tawhid.html
why do you seek to convince me that it wouldnt impact Tawhid? I am neither the shia who believes that Allah spoke in the voice of Ali nor the hardliner sunni who believes the shia to be Kafir/mushrik. there are those who would believe that it does impact Tawhid, there are those who believe it doesnt. the specific example isnt relevant, the answer to the question isnt relevant, I am merely pointing out a difference in what you call core foundational beliefs without giving any side a preferred position.
Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?
The website hasn't been active for 4 and a half years and they give no references for any of their comments. Good to know you choose an out of date website when a simple question I have asked twice now is not answered. Simple question and I repeat it a third time:
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If Allah took the form of a cat when he speak to the Holy Prophet would that impact Tawhid?
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Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?
As far as Im concerned it would depend on the specifics of the cat. If its a particular Cat then I can see it impacting Tawhid. If its not then no.
The reason you had to repeat the question is because my own answer to it isnt relevant. There have been a large number of Muslims through the ages that have found the cat to be shirk, and similar disputes stemming from Tawhid related to intercession etc. You say the website is defunct, are you simply not aware of the facts in the quoted text, would you like another source or should I not waste my time?
Edit:Just in case:
Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?
LOL! See Ravage? Like I said two pages ago. When it comes down to definitions you lot get confused and muddled up. You like to keep things ill-defined and fluid so your views remain intact regardless if they conform with reality or not.
Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?
er.. how so?
were you referring to the answer to the cat question? I believe you're missing context there. there are two shia answers to the Hazrat Ali's voice issue wrt Tawhid amongst the people who believe the hadis. one group says it was just a voice, it had to be some voice, so to give it a familiar touch God chose Hazrat Ali's voice. I dont see that view impacting Tawhid. the other group says it actually was Hazrat Ali, he was behind the curtain so to speak, and he spends a lot of time up there, running the affairs of the state so to speak. That I see impacting tawhid.
Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?
Ah perfect. So if the cat was behind the curtain and spent a lot of time up there it would impact Tawhid as well?