Pakistan Islamic or Secular?

[MissTY]

Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?

those who you are claiming that follow a very moderate version of Islam, may be you are pointing to so called "Enlightened Moderation" followers, a term coined during Mush era, if thats the case, than sorry, but they are not really following Islam. also the ones you are claiming are Extremists, if you are pointing to TTP, SSP, LJ etc, then sorry again, neither they are following true Islam. both are victim of a disease called "Ifraat-o-tafreet"

That was kind of my point. You and many others may think that this enlightened moderated islam is all just hypocritical and not true but again, some people believe it is. who are you to define the true islam? Muslims will never come to an agreement for what is the true islam that muslims need to follow.

[quote]
When we say a Islamic State, it means neither of them, nor a Kingdom like KSA, we mean a true Islamic State which tends to follow the very basics of Sharia and performs its daily business internal or external on the footsteps of Muhammad Sallaho alaehe wassalam, and his companions. Keep that in mind, and all these "different types of Islam" as you put it, will fade away. But this is only possible if we let go our luxurious and malicious life style which totally contradicts that of a true Muslim.
[/QUOTE]

When will it all fade away and real islam will arise? can you give me an example of true Islamic state that exists today. I have heard people say that taliban were the only truely islamic state. do yo u believe that?
something that contradicts Islam is not necessarily malicious. if that were true, all non-muslims would be evil but they are not. Unless we let go for our religous supremacy complex, there will never be any tolerance.

[CM]

Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?

There is a group of people that follow a very moderate version of Islam that doesn't involve intolerance or violence and there is another group of jihadi extremist islam. You can say there is only one islam but that is NOT how it's practiced. All these people claim to be following the same Quran but they seem to take its meaning in different ways. If Islam is imposed on pakistan, it will be the biggest disaster ever.

Show me the different forms of Islam. Its a ****ing simple request. Yet you can't do it. Why?

[ravage]

Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?

what are you on about CM. all the different sects and sub-sects in Pakistan are different forms of Islam from the perspective of the adherents of those sects.

[GlobalGal]

Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?

why didn't jinnah opt for an islamic pakistan with only sharia laws? sharia laws are based on islam's fair ways.

[samb]

Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?

Pakistan should be secular.

[MissTY]

Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?

Show me the different forms of Islam. Its a ****ing simple request. Yet you can't do it. Why?

I gave you about 5 different examples.
1) Taliban's islam
2) Saudi arabias Islam
3) Enlightened moderated islam

WHICH one is pakistan supposed to follow?

How can you say there is only one Islam when there are so many groups of Muslims ready to die for Islam that THEY think is the true version?

[yazdi]

Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?

No. Your very foundation of your argument is wrong. Muslims do not argue over the 5 principles of Islam do they? They don't argue that we need to pray to Mecca right? You said Islam. So please show me the distinct different types of Islam. Not government structures. Not political entities. The different types of Islam. Do name those different types. Just name them.

if you talk about five pillars of Islam, they deal with your personal religious belief. If that kind of Islam which is based on five pillars is concerned you are free to practice them even in France which is considered highly secular.

We are talking personal religion and political religion. Personal religion in Islam's context is based on five pillars namely nimaz, roza, hajj, zakat, and belief in holy prophet and Allah, period. All these acts are your personal acts, nothing to do with the state...

Political religion is different... where state adopts one single religion in a multi religious society.

In this case state starts punishing the sins (religious wrong doings), in addition to crimes (wrong doings effecting fellow citizens).

The recent example of Taliban's Afghanistan as a role model of Islamic state, you could be punished for shaving your beard.

I know you will argue that it was not Islam as you see it, but most of the religious leaders including that of Jamat Islami consider it as the best model of Islamic state in modern times.

Here the posters who are arguing for secular system are actually not supporting no religion in the society. They are just supporting the state should not adopt a particular religion in the worldly matters, while giving you freedom to follow your five pillars..

While your argument revolves just around twisting words, and confusing people with definitions as you think. I don't find any logical content in your argument.. as I think according to my own very personal opinion.

[Aceones]

Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?

That was kind of my point. You and many others may think that this enlightened moderated islam is all just hypocritical and not true but again, some people believe it is. who are you to define the true islam? Muslims will never come to an agreement for what is the true islam that muslims need to follow.

who says i'm someone to define true islam? its job of Ulema Karam, and they will do it, not you not me, not mush. and there is no issue about what is true islam that muslim needs to follow, because there is something called "Ijmah" which was reached centuries ago in major issues, minor issues, can simply be left out for everyone to be followed their own. as currently it is.

When will it all fade away and real islam will arise? can you give me an example of true Islamic state that exists today. I have heard people say that taliban were the only truely islamic state. do yo u believe that? something that contradicts Islam is not necessarily malicious. if that were true, all non-muslims would be evil but they are not. Unless we let go for our religous supremacy complex, there will never be any tolerance.

its not religious supremacy complex, ITS THE FACT. its belief. if you leave your belief and declare that you do not adhere to what Islam says, and you dont care for the hereafter (in islamic way atleast) then you are all good to go with secularism. But when we claim we are muslims, we made this country to practice our religion, and we believe the life after death, then we gotta do what we are asked to do. its all about belief, if one believes that only this world is all it has to it, then fine, no worries for them, they can earn and spend all they can the way they want, and enjoy all the can, follow any way of governing and running a country and society they find most suitable.

and remember, if some people (or most of them) are doing against Islam, and claiming to be muslim, it doesnt mean that something is wrong with Islam, its only these people who have something wrong in their head. it should not stop one from wanting and demanding implementation, and upholding opinion that they want Shariyah to be implemented in their country.

and as you asked do i believe if Taliban had a true islamic state, then no i dont believe that. but i believe it was one of the closest. yet they had very very major issues in their implementation thats why they failed.

[MardEMomin]

Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?

well if you look in general, countries that are secular are way more successful.

Don't tell India or China are better than Pakistan or Saudi. All countries which follow Abrahmamic religions are successful like Israel, America, Saudi, Somalia and Pakistan(our brothers). While Hindu heroines of Bollywood are be-sharam, American/European, Arab, and Pakistani women observe Purdah and such a society is successful where women do hejaab like in European countries or Pakistan

[yazdi]

Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?

@Aceones

and as you asked do i believe if Taliban had a true islamic state, then no i dont believe that. but i believe it was one of the closest.** yet they had very very major issues in their implementation thats why they failed.**

Why should Taliban, you, government of Pakistan, or anyone else implement Islam... Islam is already there and people who want Islam implement it in their daily lives. Why should it be implemented by force after taking over the country by a bunch of political thugs disguised as mullahs/Talibans. You may call them ulema e din, a lot of people consider them political opportunist.

So please do not bring religion in the state affairs, and as country we should not adopt one single religion or sect of islam, while giving you complete freedom to follow your five pillars as you think them to be true.

[CM]

Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?

I have a question gentlemen why do you define Islam in socio-political terms? This is to Yazdi, Ravage and the multinick who will be banned again shortly?

[yazdi]

Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?

@MardEMomin

Pakistan was created in the name of Islam modeled like Saudi Arabia. Every citizen must practice Islam and five prayers are a must for everyone. Anyone who doesn't follow azaan must be punished.

@CM
This is exactly the religious bigotry, and punishing sins by the state in addition to crime which I was talking about.
State should be very carefully distinguish between sins and crimes, and should not have anything to do with sins.
Punishing sins should be left to Allah, while state should concentrate on curbing the crimes which directly effect people.

[Aceones]

Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?

@yazdi

Why should Taliban, you, government of Pakistan, or anyone else implement Islam... Islam is already there and people who want Islam implement it in their daily lives. Why should it be implemented by force after taking over the country by a bunch of political thugs disguised as mullahs/Talibans. You may call them ulema e din, a lot of people consider them political opportunist.

So please do not bring religion in the state affairs, and as country we should not adopt one single religion or sect of islam, while giving you complete freedom to follow your five pillars as you think them to be true.

I cannot say about any other religion, but Islam Demands to be a State Affair, Islam is not only about your personal life and rituals, its about how a complete country should be governed, what should be its policies, what kind of welfare its should run, how it should deal with neighboring countries, how it should provide justice to the people of the state and so on.

Islam in itself is a complete political model. When you say Islam is a complete way of life, it includes everything, from personal beliefs, to rituals, to justice, to politics, to economics, to education to everything a modern society practices or may need to practice in future.

[yazdi]

Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?

@CM

I have a question gentlemen why do you define Islam in socio-political terms? This is to Yazdi, Ravage and the multinick who will be banned again shortly?

Because here we are discussing how a country should be governed. That has to do only with socio-political aspects of a religion, and not with your personal five pillars which you are practicing in your daily life which do not effect others.

Personally I totally agree with your definition of Islam with respect to five pillars... for your personal life and leave the state affairs to more worldly forces..!!!

[N3m3sis]

Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?

I am not a Muslim but some Muslims friends of mine have told me that:

1. Each Muslim should read Holy Quran, and follow its teachings according to his/her own understanding. The connection between a Muslim and God is direct and there is no need for Clergy/Ulema dictating others who do not follow their own interpretation.

2. There is no compulsion in religion. In other words nobody has the authority to impose his/her own religious views upon others.

If both are correct than there is no monolithic or "correct" Islam because Muslims may live according to their own understanding of Quran.

Were they wrong ? Somebody please comment.

[ravage]

Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?

@CM

I have a question gentlemen why do you define Islam in socio-political terms? This is to Yazdi, Ravage and the multinick who will be banned again shortly?

im defining Islam in terms of its adherents without giving myself, or allowing anyone else, a preferred position in determining what it is. sects are a result of Muslims deciding that ‘Islam’ is something different from what another group sees it to be. whichever way you define religion, whether in terms of outward practices (that go far and beyond the ‘five pillars’, and are seen to be essential by those Muslims) or by actual beliefs… it does take on different forms even in personal or community practice.

This is particularly relevant when the state is determining a person’s religious identity. As noted in the Munir commission report:

The net result of all this is that neither Shias nor Sunnis nor Deobandis nor Ahl-i-Hadith nor Barelvis are Muslims and any change from one view to the other must be accompanied in an Islamic State with the penalty of death if the Government of the State is in the hands of the party which considers the other party to be kafirs. And it does not require much imagination to judge of the consequences of this doctrine when it is remembered that no two ulama have agreed before us as to the definition of a Muslim. If the constituents of each of the definitions given by the ulama are given effect to, and subjected to the rule of combination and permutation’ and the form of charge in the Inquisition’s sentence on Galileo is adopted mutatis mutandis as a model, the grounds on which a person may be indicted for apostasy will be too numerous to count.

[yazdi]

Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?

@ravage

im defining Islam in terms of its adherents without giving myself, or allowing anyone else, a preferred position in determining what it is. sects are a result of Muslims deciding that ‘Islam’ is something different from what another group sees it to be. whichever way you define religion, whether in terms of outward practices (that go far and beyond the ‘five pillars’, and are seen to be essential by those Muslims) or by actual beliefs… it does take on different forms even in personal or community practice.

This is particularly relevant when the state is determining a person’s religious identity. As noted in the Munir commission report:

Great post..!!!
Thanks for sharing this portion of Munir report. It’s an eye opener.

[CM]

Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?

As always I have to draw it in crayon for you lot. The reason I always bring up this subject is simple. What is Islam? It is a faith. It is a religion. It is a way of life that governs the acts of individuals. That is Islam. Now what Muslims have done in believing that Islam is a way of life have created various different forms of government from the Hashmite Kingdoms in Morocco and Jordan, to Military control in Algeria, Egypt and Pakistan to a religious and ethnic based democracy in Lebanon to a theocracy in Saudi Arabia and Iran. Lets not forget Malaysia and Indonesia.

Its always interesting to note that you lot use Islam and the worst form of governments in Muslim countries together, as if Islam is synonymous with the evil these regimes represent. Telling isn't it?

However the Hashmite Kingdom in Morocco is no more Islam than the democracy in Indonesia. Both are based in some way on Islamic teachings and ideals. Yet none are the religion itself.

It is normal for you lot when you defame the idea of religious state to insult Islam and state that the religion is in of itself wrong and evil.

But then again what does it matter, Thank Allah you in no way represent the Pakistani people or its spirit.

[ravage]

Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?

you're either incapable of responding to what I posted, or wish to persist in attacking a strawman (im assuming you're including me in 'you lot'). not once did I, in talking about sects, talk about 'various forms of government', nor was that implied as the reason for why Islam takes on different forms. even if there is no issue of government, and someone asked me does Islam take on different forms, I'd say yes. and if someone then asked me should we have an islamic government, the natural question would be which Islamic interpretation are you talking about?

you say it is a way of life that governs the acts of individuals. it is these specific acts that vary significantly across sects, while being seen by the actors to be in keeping with or demanded by Islam. since the way of life governed by the religion varies, the religion varies.

[CM]

Re: Pakistan Islamic or Secular?

Ravage its simple. You like fluid definitions of terms that are established in stone. I do not. When this discussion comes up regularly, and has in All Views and the rest, it always comes down to me demanding a concrete definition, and you wishing for a very very fluid definition to defend your views. The only difference here is I ask questions which you rarely answer. The different sects are not political entities. They are religious ones. So what do they have to do with forms of government?