Re: Pakistan initiated ALL wars against India: Air Marshal (r) Asghar Khan
(August 2013) but does it matter? Asghar Khan (born 1921) is 93 years old
I can understand some people feeling defensive or even bad about this. My intention was never to paint Pak army (I am an ex-cadet myself) in a bad light but there is a need to learn from our past mistakes. We should be happy with what we have got and should focus all our energies on human development in Pakistan and end this thekedari or obsession with grabbing the rest of Kashmir. I have lived in the UK for 20+ years now and most of the Kashmiris that I have spoken to, although a great majority do support Pakistan, would rather be completely independent which is not plausible for the reasons I have mentioned in my post above (#5)
4 provinces sanbhaltey nahin, poori duniya k musalmanon ka theka lena hai !!
As someone said:
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How significant is this pointless chauvinistic rivalry that is fuelled almost exclusively by communal differences?
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off topic. Saudi Arabia holds special historical/religious significance for all of us but I do not look up to present day Saudis or Arabs in general esp. after hearing from people how Saudis (mis)treat ordinary Pakistanis and sub-continental/African muslims in general. They are the biggest racists and white skin bootlickers in the world. For starters Arabs lack politeness..
Re: Pakistan initiated ALL wars against India: Air Marshall (r) Asghar Khan
I would call it sanity or wisdom if the idea or intention was to avoid a full scale war (war serves nothing) and unnecessary bloodshed.
Consorting with the enemy air chief while you are in uniform? Yaar ab itna bhee mat chorro. Can you imagine an indian doing that even if the Jaswant Singh himself was the air chief?
Btw, I am far from a chauvinist that you can get but I wanted to set the record straight.
Re: Pakistan initiated ALL wars against India: Air Marshall (r) Asghar Khan
And later to apologies for memo gate . Nothing was wrong with Hussain Haqqani (although he didn’t deserve to be an ambassador in US) . Just an adventure by Pasha .
Re: Pakistan initiated ALL wars against India: Air Marshal (r) Asghar Khan
Consorting with the enemy air chief while you are in uniform? Yaar ab itna bhee mat chorro. Can you imagine an indian doing that even if the Jaswant Singh himself was the air chief?
Btw, I am far from a chauvinist that you can get but I wanted to set the record straight.
^ You have a point :) But even worse was that Ayub did not trust his own Air Chief !!
Re: Pakistan initiated ALL wars against India: Air Marshall (r) Asghar Khan
And later to apologies for memo gate . Nothing was wrong with Hussain Haqqani (although he didn't deserve to be an ambassador in US) . Just an adventure by Pasha .
What about him poo poo'ing Pakistan now saying that US and Pakistan must "divorce". I am not completely against what he is saying, but what was so different in PPP's time when he used to be on the same programs like Charlie Rose saying that Pakistan must be "helped" aka aid money. If he is so against the establishment and that the fact pakistan and us as countries can't work, then why the hypocrisy?
To me, once a hypocrite always a hypocrite. Or should I say once a jamati munafiq, always a jamati munafiq like munawwar hassan.
Re: Pakistan initiated ALL wars against India: Air Marshall (r) Asghar Khan
There is a difference. Kashmiri people did not side with Pakistani army in 1965 when proxy war by Ayub Khan was initiated well before 6 Sep 1965. On the other hand Bengali welcome Indian army and fought with them side by side against Pakistan army. Comment regarding hussain haqqani is stupid and not related.
Re: Pakistan initiated ALL wars against India: Air Marshal (r) Asghar Khan
(August 2013) but does it matter?
Yes.
The historical context (i.e the time when the source was produced) and the motive behind the source always matter. If it was a brand new latest interview, it would've appeared as a way of fueling the most recent current of common military criticism, and consequently, the source would've been treated as a questionable piece of opinion by Historians.
Speaking of academics, I think it's incredibly disappointing that History is an amply neglected subject in Pakistan. Despite all the controversies, popular myths and misinformation, the Pakistani academia has made no serious efforts to research the ultimate truth to defy all myths and expose propaganda. The academic fields in the country must undertake serious and widespread investigation into military history.
There's so much war hysteria amongst the dangerous and over exposed pseudo intellectuals in the country, that I doubt this nation like the Western World ever develop a collective 'never again' attitude to home front wars.
Re: Pakistan initiated ALL wars against India: Air Marshal (r) Asghar Khan
Every country fabricates their history/school text books to some extent to make their own look superior. And it is no different in Pakistan's case. That is the bitter truth. And Yes we need to revisit and revise our history books and syllabus.
Re: Pakistan initiated ALL wars against India: Air Marshal (r) Asghar Khan
Every country fabricates their history/school text books to some extent to make their own look superior. And it is no different in Pakistan's case. That is the bitter truth. And Yes we need to revisit and revise our history books and syllabus.
Not really. All developed and free countries never hide the truth particularly in their history text books, unlike Pakistan's text history books based on mostly lies, concocted, biased, prejudiced, hatred and subjective. Credit goes to JI who some how with the connivance of dictators distorted the history of Pakistan.
Re: Pakistan initiated ALL wars against India: Air Marshal (r) Asghar Khan
It happens in the Western World as well. Britain for instance would never own up to it's mistakes in Falkland islands etc. or the lies they told everyone (re. Iraq's weapons of mass destruction) to justify invasion of Iraq
Re: Pakistan initiated ALL wars against India: Air Marshal (r) Asghar Khan
Not really. All developed and free countries never hide the truth particularly in their history text books, unlike Pakistan's text history books based on mostly lies, concocted, biased, prejudiced, hatred and subjective. Credit goes to JI who some how with the connivance of dictators distorted the history of Pakistan.
They hide it even when they are doing it and propagate so many lies about their aims, example, Iraq war was for oil, American stance: It was to get rid of Saddam. How many other dictators have US got rid of. Oh forgot their was no oil in those countries or where there was (like Saudi) they were already American boot lickers.
Re: Pakistan initiated ALL wars against India: Air Marshal (r) Asghar Khan
It happens in the Western World as well. Britain for instance would never own up to it's mistakes in Falkland islands etc. or the lies they told everyone (re. Iraq's weapons of mass destruction) to justify invasion of Iraq
By Britain if you mean government, then governments don't necessarily own up to anything. It's the academics that investigate the truth, study the past and write history. In regards to your point about Iraq War - In Britain, we have 'Thirty Year Rule' also known as the Public Record Act of 1968 which allows Cabinet Papers to become available in the National Archives thirty years after they were created. This particular law coupled with Freedom of Information Act of 2000 has transformed the practice of writing History. So technically speaking, the Crusade carried out in Iraq will be truly exposed with profound evidence sometime in 2030. Just like recently the world has learned that it wasn't Stalin who started the Cold War.
Re: Pakistan initiated ALL wars against India: Air Marshal (r) Asghar Khan
Every country fabricates their history/school text books to some extent to make their own look superior. And it is no different in Pakistan's case. That is the bitter truth. And Yes we need to revisit and revise our history books and syllabus.
I can agree with simplification of history, but fabricating of history is a totally different thing. For starters, Iraq Invasion is not a part of British History Curriculum, so I fail to see what links it hold with text books? You can most certainly highlight the accounts in British text books which you think are fabricated, pin point text books you think are based on propaganda. History is yet to be written on the times we're going through.
Unlike in the developing countries, the academia in the Western world is, to a monumental extent, a historically established, independent and research based institution, with rigorous rules and regulations of its own. The long tradition of creating primary sources, preserving and managing those sources, and making it accessible to the general public and academics has massively contributed to the practice of writing objective, informative and evidence based history. The existence of specialised and national archives, museums and libraries in the West make it virtually impossible to write fabricated history, because all the evidence is out there in public domain. All Historical work is judged and given a certain credibility rating on the basis of the sources used. For that reason, the bibliography of all major academic analysis are religiously examined and crossed check. So any idiot cannot write a book saying European Imperial powers never agreed to divide the entire Ottoman Empire amongst themselves before the First World War, it was all a German conspiracy, without having any proper verified sources to back up his claim.
The famous controversy of *Hitler Diaries *resulting in the end of career of Oxford University's Prof. Hugh Trevor-Roper, who at the time was holding the most prestigious position in the department, in a nutshell sums up the level of scrutiny that goes in reviewing all major works, and how seriously source verification and source analsyis is taken in the West. The government and politicians don't decide these things, it's the academics and the Universities that try to do full justice to knowledge and information.
Re: Pakistan initiated ALL wars against India: Air Marshall (r) Asghar Khan
There is a difference. Kashmiri people did not side with Pakistani army in 1965 when proxy war by Ayub Khan was initiated well before 6 Sep 1965. On the other hand Bengali welcome Indian army and fought with them side by side against Pakistan army. Comment regarding hussain haqqani is stupid and not related.
apples and oranges. nothing to do with who started the war.
Re: Pakistan initiated ALL wars against India: Air Marshal (r) Asghar Khan
They hide it even when they are doing it and propagate so many lies about their aims, example, Iraq war was for oil, American stance: It was to get rid of Saddam. How many other dictators have US got rid of. Oh forgot their was no oil in those countries or where there was (like Saudi) they were already American boot lickers.
Not that it helped the western consumer, unlike the puppet shah of iran, but I think that it had more to do with securing Israel. Bush wanted to show America is strong and being in middle of the middle east would achieve that not to mention that saddam had supposedly written checks to families of Palestinian suicide bombers. If it was about oil, then I am sure saddam would have made a deal to save his hide considering the fact that he had seen the beating the US gave to Iraq in 1991; his military in 2002 was further in disrepair with all the sanctions and America had more precision weapons than before.
Re: Pakistan initiated ALL wars against India: Air Marshal (r) Asghar Khan
(August 2013) We should be happy with what we have got and should focus all our energies on human development in Pakistan and end this thekedari or obsession with grabbing the rest of Kashmir. I have lived in the UK for 20+ years now and most of the Kashmiris that I have spoken to, although a great majority do support Pakistan, would rather be completely independent which is not plausible for the reasons I have mentioned in my post above (#5)
All those so called 'Kashmiris' in England are not really Kashmiri, these Mirpuris are actually Pahari/Potohari speakers; they like to claim to be 'Kashmiri' but they're not, they're related to Punjabis, in fact AJK has almost no ethnic Kashmiris apart from a few refugees, so they're opinion means little.
If you want to see really Kashmiris in Pakistan and hear their opinion, then visit Sialkot and the rest of North Punjab and almost all of them are with Pakistan.
Re: Pakistan initiated ALL wars against India: Air Marshal (r) Asghar Khan
All those so called 'Kashmiris' in England are not really Kashmiri, these Mirpuris are actually Pahari/Potohari speakers; they like to claim to be 'Kashmiri' but they're not, they're related to Punjabis, in fact AJK has almost no ethnic Kashmiris apart from a few refugees, so they're opinion means little.
If you want to see really Kashmiris in Pakistan and hear their opinion, then visit Sialkot and the rest of North Punjab and almost all of them are with Pakistan.
No offence but I have no time for Mirpuris.. Generally come across as uneducated paindus to me...
