Re: Pakistan disabled girl arrested for blasphemy
You cited example of conviction rate in cases of inciting hatred...you must check conviction rate of the cases booked under anti blasphemy law. I am no fan of mfh and does not support his act so no point in arguing about it.
You know, intent is relevant here.
Did MFH truly have malicious intent with his painting? I mean, did he have a history of infuriating Hindus with such provocative themes ?
Re: Pakistan disabled girl arrested for blasphemy
if you are asking if naked hindu goddesses is something mf hussain came up with as a novel idea, no. they are everywhere in ancient hindu temples for all and sundry to see. the ones getting provoked are brainless idiots eager to be used by right wing political parties.
Re: Pakistan disabled girl arrested for blasphemy
if you are asking if naked hindu goddesses is something mf hussain came up with as a novel idea, no. they are everywhere in ancient hindu temples for all and sundry to see. the ones getting provoked are brainless idiots eager to be used by right wing political parties.
That I know. I recall watching a documentary on ancient Indian art and culture with the family when I was younger and having to change the channel when they had some very a explicit images...
What I'm asking though is does anyone really believe he was maliciously trying to hurt Hindu sentiments, or was he genuine when he claimed the painting was an expression of respect?
Re: Pakistan disabled girl arrested for blasphemy
*MF Hussain would have been protected by Government till the end, there is no question about it. * Also, there is no law as draconian as the Pakistani law to book him. The worst case would have been booking for inciting communal violence, under which Indian courts have hardly punished anybody.
I would have appreciated him if he stood his ground and lived in India. instead of he choose to politicize it and live abroad, under the patronage of hypocrite rich. I wonder why the Sheikhs who hosted MFH did not offer the same kind of welcome to Salmon Rushdie. I like freedom of expression, but I can never forgive MFH for making this a religious issue by going to religious bigots for support. I also wonder if he would have had the same guts to offend Muslims. I like true liberals and atheists for that reasons, they don't leave anyone - they are fair.
I was covering the back ground of cow worship in India, it may be on the decline now, but in south, what I have seen is what I am describing. Also, in general vegetarianism is very prevalent in India and animal abuse is condemned. In such back ground you can understand why they want to ban beef. It is somewhat akin to preventing sale of Alcohol in Saudi. Again, I am not saying they should ban, cow slaughter, but there is no comparison between cow slaughter and blasphemy law that seems to be vague and draconian.
You said MFH should have stayed and the Govt. would have protected to extreme. What if Indian Govt. could not have saved him.
What did you mean by "till the end"? Whose end? ;)
How can you be so sure of his protection?
And since when alcohol ban is akin to cow slaughter.
1- Are you approving the alcohol sale ban in KSA?
2- Do you not see alcohol is NOT a 'dietary item' but cow meat is for billions of people around the world?
3- Vast majority of religious teachings prohibit alcohol but not cow meat.
Re: Pakistan disabled girl arrested for blasphemy
Somebody else argued that just because there are nude idols in ancient temples, Hindu gods are fair game to be painted in the nude. Forgive me, but that argument sounds a bit "queer" to me. Social norms and mores have not remained same since last 2500 years. In 500 B.C., it might have been acceptable to make such statutes. In contemporary Indian or Hindu society, which is heavily influenced by Islamic and Victorian mores,
such a painting is highly offensive, especially if it is made by a person, in whose religion such portrayal would be considered a grave insult.
Re: Pakistan disabled girl arrested for blasphemy
BTW, strictly speaking, cows are not holy in Hindu religion, just like the physical manifestation of Al Kitab is not holy. It is only in the popular perception of their respective followers, that these two entities are deified. But, popular perceptions are important as they define reality and laws.
Re: Pakistan disabled girl arrested for blasphemy
**Blasphemy . **Does it make sense? Specially for non-muslims?
The biggest sin in Islam is shirk. And by definition of tauheed, all non-muslims nowadays are considered to fall in that category, even people of the book. So if a non-muslim is a practicing christian, hindu, parsi etc, they are committing shirk in their lives, day in day out according to the Islamic definition of shirk. By that definition, their entire lives are blasphemic.
It seems comedic when people pick on an incident where a non-muslim tosses a page from the Holy Quran on the floor, and then condemn him/her for blasphemy. A person who 'believes in Allah SWT, and His Prophet SAW, and reveres the Holy Quran', and then goes on to disobey/disregard orders laid out by Allah SWT, and Holy Prophet SAW should technically be a blasphemer, as opposed to one who doesnt even believe in Allah SWT in the first place.
Re: Pakistan disabled girl arrested for blasphemy
[mod]guys please respect the faith of other posters[/mod]
Re: Pakistan disabled girl arrested for blasphemy
**Blasphemy . **Does it make sense? Specially for non-muslims?
The biggest sin in Islam is shirk. And by definition of tauheed, all non-muslims nowadays are considered to fall in that category, even people of the book. So if a non-muslim is a practicing christian, hindu, parsi etc, they are committing shirk in their lives, day in day out according to the Islamic definition of shirk. By that definition, their entire lives are blasphemic.
It seems comedic when people pick on an incident where a non-muslim tosses a page from the Holy Quran on the floor, and then condemn him/her for blasphemy. A person who 'believes in Allah SWT, and His Prophet SAW, and reveres the Holy Quran', and then goes on to disobey/disregard orders laid out by Allah SWT, and Holy Prophet SAW should technically be a blasphemer, as opposed to one who doesnt even believe in Allah SWT in the first place.
Not to defend the blasphemy law but there is a difference here. One is a "sinner" and one is a "blasphemer", sinner is someone who believes (or says so) in God but acts on his own wishes (while disobeying God) but someone who ridicules religion/religious text (regardless of his/her belief) that's blasphemy. This is just like people who believe in the laws of the land but don't follow it whenever they can or actually commit a crime, they are called criminals but someone who doesn't believe in the laws of the land and acts against the country will be called outlaw/traitor (?) or some other term.
Re: Pakistan disabled girl arrested for blasphemy
Another interesting twist:
Several years ago the Council of Islamic Ideology of Pakistan, the official ulema body responsible for recommending how laws in Pakistan should be amended to comply with Islam, issued a recommendation on amending the blasphemy law which Pakistan’s parliament has refused to pass for several years.
The proposed amendment was simple:
Since misusing the blasphemy law is itself blasphemous, anyone found guilty of misusing this law against an innocent person shall be put to death for blasphemy.
Re: Pakistan disabled girl arrested for blasphemy
You said MFH should have stayed and the Govt. would have protected to extreme. What if Indian Govt. could not have saved him.
What did you mean by "till the end"? Whose end? ;)
How can you be so sure of his protection?
And since when alcohol ban is akin to cow slaughter.
1- Are you approving the alcohol sale ban in KSA?
2- Do you not see alcohol is NOT a 'dietary item' but cow meat is for billions of people around the world?
3- Vast majority of religious teachings prohibit alcohol but not cow meat.
India has protected numerous people who face danger? In fact, it probably has the distinction of having the most number of people under top security. Besides, that's not the point. If you believe in free expression, express it and rely on those who support you, in this case the ruling party and Government. Don't hide.
Although I am not for ban on any food item, my point is argument sake. The comparison is not on what is more prevalent. In India Hindus are offended by cow slaughter, based on their scriptures and in SA Muslims are offended by liquor (or women not covering head-to-tow or women working too many things list). If you want to live there adhere to their rules. But the problem is punishment should commensurate the crime. lashing in public, death sentence for burning Scriptures are kind of barbaric.
Now, Pakistan needs to choose what is the correct course for it. The law must be applied fairly, not because the public demanded it. The law itself should be fair, should provide exceptions, like in this case. What is disturbing is the public anger at these kind of things are so much more than any other issues that really matters to them like corruption, lack of opportunities etc.., In fact, any talk of amending the law get politicians killed. It feels like value of NW Pakistan moving South and East.
Re: Pakistan disabled girl arrested for blasphemy
India has protected numerous people who face danger? In fact, it probably has the distinction of having the most number of people under top security. Besides, that's not the point. If you believe in free expression, express it and rely on those who support you, in this case the ruling party and Government. Don't hide.
Although I am not for ban on any food item, my point is argument sake. The comparison is not on what is more prevalent. In India Hindus are offended by cow slaughter, based on their scriptures and in SA Muslims are offended by liquor (or women not covering head-to-tow or women working too many things list). If you want to live there adhere to their rules. But the problem is punishment should commensurate the crime. lashing in public, death sentence for burning Scriptures are kind of barbaric.
Now, Pakistan needs to choose what is the correct course for it. The law must be applied fairly, not because the public demanded it. The law itself should be fair, should provide exceptions, like in this case. What is disturbing is the public anger at these kind of things are so much more than any other issues that really matters to them like corruption, lack of opportunities etc.., In fact, any talk of amending the law get politicians killed. It feels like value of NW Pakistan moving South and East.
India is a secular nation unlike Saudi Arabia isn't it?
Thats why the question about ban on cow slaughter.....
Re: Pakistan disabled girl arrested for blasphemy
Cow slaughter should be allowed, but Satanic Verses must be banned?
Majority should be secular, but minority shouldn’t ? 
Happens only in Yindia !
Re: Pakistan disabled girl arrested for blasphemy
There is long list of books banned in india…
why talk about Satanic verses only…
Re: Pakistan disabled girl arrested for blasphemy
There is long list of books banned in india....
why talk about Satanic verses only.....:D
Why not?
Re: Pakistan disabled girl arrested for blasphemy
Why not?
Ji because he cited ban on satanic verses as an example of non secular nature of indian muslims....
but there are books banned for insulting hinduism,removed articles/essays from University syllabus ..so banning satanic verses is not a special case..
Re: Pakistan disabled girl arrested for blasphemy
^
All these book including Satanic Verses are banned because they "hurt" the feelings of one group of Indians or another.
By the same logic, cow slaughter is banned in **6 out of 28 **states because it "hurts" the feeling of practicing Hindus.
Now, please don't drag poor cows in every other thread as a red herring and let the nice Pakistanis discuss their national issues :)
Re: Pakistan disabled girl arrested for blasphemy
^ All these book including Satanic Verses are banned because they "hurt" the feelings of one group of Indians or another.
By the same logic, cow slaughter is banned in **6 out of 28 **states because it "hurts" the feeling of practicing Hindus.
Now, please don't drag poor cows in every other thread as a red herring and let the nice Pakistanis discuss their national issues :)
In same manner this law against blasphemy...........
ok let them continue their discussion in PA forum..at least we can agree on this.........:)
Re: Pakistan disabled girl arrested for blasphemy
India has protected numerous people who face danger? In fact, it probably has the distinction of having the most number of people under top security. Besides, that's not the point. If you believe in free expression, express it and rely on those who support you, in this case the ruling party and Government. Don't hide.
**All of this is easy for you to say. Whatever you would say has no meaning since the person who felt the danger left the country for not likely to be saved by the govt.
NOW:
Let me ask you: There are people wh all the time make a big deal about hindus leaving Pakistan for supposedly feeling insecure and the reason cited is those people 'feeling' unsecured".
For the same reason if someone feels "unsecure" in India/Hindustan can leave the country as well. Let him go, why ask him to be 'brave' and risk his life?**
Although I am not for ban on any food item, my point is argument sake.
That's what I thought.
The comparison is not on what is more prevalent. In India Hindus are offended by cow slaughter, based on their scriptures and in SA Muslims are offended by liquor (or women not covering head-to-tow or women working too many things list).
There is no comparison between KSA (Not secular) and India (claim to be secular) and if you continue to cite KSA then you must say they are same. All you are doing is proving that most of the so called secular countries still are NOT secular and just go with the laws which either majority religion dictates or local law makers craft the laws to appease the local majority.
If you want to live there adhere to their rules. But the problem is punishment should commensurate the crime. lashing in public, death sentence for burning Scriptures are kind of barbaric.
Now this is what really needs to be discussed instead of ludicrous demand of abolishing the blasphemy law altogether in a country like Pakistan, since there are a lot of countries including India blasphemy law exists.
Now, Pakistan needs to choose what is the correct course for it. The law must be applied fairly, not because the public demanded it. The law itself should be fair, should provide exceptions, like in this case. What is disturbing is the public anger at these kind of things are so much more than any other issues that really matters to them like corruption, lack of opportunities etc.., In fact, any talk of amending the law get politicians killed. It feels like value of NW Pakistan moving South and East.
The last sentence does make sense and I have already said elsewhere that this *repeated discussion and 'countless posts' in PA/WA forum on blasphemy or minority issue in Pakistan is getting boring.
*
A demand of abolishing the blasphemy law in Pakistan is just a pipe dream.
Think of amendment and removing the death penalty which is obviously excessive to the level of 'crime' in reported events.
*Somehow all the idiots or insane or minors love to do 'blasphemous' acts, or all blasphemous people are insane or idiots. Can't differentiate.
*
Re: Pakistan disabled girl arrested for blasphemy
India is a secular nation unlike Saudi Arabia isn't it?
Thats why the question about ban on cow slaughter.....
Now you have moved the goalpost.