Re: Pak Military wins... the dancing girls are back!
I think people are reacting to the misreading of the original intent of the article, the repeated statement that anyone is saying that getting 16 years exploited was a goal of the Pakistan military that has been successfully accomplished.
The taleban employed brutal, murderous means to make these women flee to save their lives. That they do not hold enough menace value anymore to allow the girls to return IS a sign that the military has been successful in their military objectives, i.e. rooting Taleban out. The military objectives are strictly that, military objectives. Social objectives of eliminating female exploitation are absolutely worthy causes, but something the military isnt supposed to be tasked with, and their success will not be measured on those dimensions.
Why anyone would make such a basic comprehension error as to twist that into suggesting that anyone is celebrating the success that 16 year old girls are dancing again is beyond me.
I think people are reacting to the misreading of the original intent of the article, the repeated statement that anyone is saying that getting 16 years exploited was a goal of the Pakistan military that has been successfully accomplished.
The taleban employed brutal, murderous means to make these women flee to save their lives. That they do not hold enough menace value anymore to allow the girls to return IS a sign that the military has been successful in their military objectives, i.e. rooting Taleban out. The military objectives are strictly that, military objectives. Social objectives of eliminating female exploitation are absolutely worthy causes, but something the military isnt supposed to be tasked with, and their success will not be measured on those dimensions.
Why anyone would make such a basic comprehension error as to twist that into suggesting that anyone is celebrating the success that 16 year old girls are dancing again is beyond me.
ravage!
Either you agree that the article was a bad example of bad reporting style or not, the fact remains.
The article clearly said it was good that these girls are back in business. If nothing else just read the title of the article for your enlightenment..
And sorry the article is in English. *Don't try to act naive or show your inability to read English.
*
Either you agree that the article was a bad example of bad reporting style or not, the fact remains.
The article clearly said it was good that these girls are back in business. If nothing else just read the title of the article for your enlightenment..
I have addressed the idea that the article says its good these girls are back in business twice already. At no point to you attempt to answer the debunking of your claim, you merely repeat the claim.
The title says "Dancing girls of Swat back in business". A statement of fact.
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Try not to be an extremist female freedom warrior, accepting dancing of young girls on street. You never once condemn their act in any post.
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I called it exploitation in my very first post, and have since referred to it as such several times.
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And sorry the article is in English. *Don't try to act naive or show your inability to read English.
*
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I think the issue is your unwillingness to go beyond a word association understanding of the text.
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Military action was good and it is good that peace for common people is restored. But saying that it is good that these girls are back in to something close to prostitution because of military action, is not kosher either.
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Which is why nobody said that the act of dancing itself is a good thing.
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And anyone who is trying to justify these girls acts and portraying them somehow they MUST dance to make a living is just sick minded, and loves to see young girls dancing for money on street. This is another form of exploitation of females.
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and nobody is disputing the completely banal point that exploitation is bad.
Even though I edited my post, you decided to linger on what I already edited. Not sure if I say bravo or shame on you..
Anyhow, your consistent denial of missing the point is very obvious.
And that point is that writer indeed praised the army action since those dancing girls are back to ‘business’.
Either you agree that the article was a bad example of bad reporting style or not, the fact remains.
The article clearly said it was good that these girls are back in business. If nothing else just read the title of the article for your enlightenment..
And sorry the article is in English. *Don't try to act naive or show your inability to read English.
*
yaar koi khuda ka naam lo... agar khuda ka naam naheen lena... then work on your reading comprehension.
the article is NOT celebrating or saying that the dancing girls/prostitutes/whatever coming back is a good thing. it is just pointing out that the security situation has improved to such an extent that IRONICALLY (look it up in a dictionary) even the dancing girls are returning to Swat who had previously left fearing for their lives at the hands of the Taliban animals.
the article is not saying that the Pak military went in with the sole purpose of bringing security to the dancing girls as is being stated by virtual mjuahideen of Gupshup. the article is just making a commentary on the improving security situation and how it is helping certain segments of society that were brutalized by the Taliban...
See thats the woolly thinking thats getting you in trouble in understanding the basic language of this article too. How do you think I would ‘linger’ on your post after you edited it?
Think about it a bit, and devise a scenario where I would know that you have edited your post, and still have a copy of the original to quote in my reply. I would need to know beforehand that you will edit your post, and therefore keep a copy of it, and then still use the original when replying to you.
Just spend a few minutes and think about it, thats all.
Your consistent inability to address the counter-arguments and keep repeating the claim is pretty obvious.
We are all adults here, and have been debating things a while. Just repeating the claim and making sarcastic/bitter comments wont fly mate.
yaar koi khuda ka naam lo... agar khuda ka naam naheen lena... then work on your reading comprehension.
**the article is NOT celebrating or saying that the dancing girls/prostitutes/whatever coming back is a good thing. **it is just pointing out that the security situation has improved to such an extent that IRONICALLY (look it up in a dictionary) even the dancing girls are returning to Swat who had previously left fearing for their lives at the hands of the Taliban animals.
the article is not saying that the Pak military went in with the sole purpose of bringing security to the dancing girls as is being stated by virtual mjuahideen of Gupshup. the article is just making a commentary on the improving security situation and how it is helping certain segments of society that were brutalized by the Taliban...
Bhai mere,
The article title and content is suggesting it. Not my own assertion. I did not make the title.
That is why I said bad journalism and reporting. The article did not say anything good besides these girls able to get in to business as an example of good work of army action.
See thats the woolly thinking thats getting you in trouble in understanding the basic language of this article too. How do you think I would 'linger' on your post after you edited it?
Think about it a bit, and devise a scenario where I would know that you have edited your post, and still have a copy of the original to quote in my reply. I would need to know beforehand that you will edit your post, and therefore keep a copy of it, and then still use the original when replying to you.
Just spend a few minutes and think about it, thats all.
Your consistent inability to address the counter-arguments and keep repeating the claim is pretty obvious.
We are all adults here, and have been debating things a while. Just repeating the claim and making sarcastic/bitter comments wont fly mate.
So what do you have to say after I edited my post?
My original question remains: What do you think was the goal of the operation?
Freedom of people as a whole or letting young girls dancing on street, what will someone reading the article think after reading it?
do the following quotes from the article "celebrate" the dancing girls? or does it present the bitter, ugly realities these exploited women face?
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Shabana says her sister is illiterate, likes her job and is happy. But deadened eyes give a different impression.
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She looks apathetic, even bored. Perhaps she has already too often endured discomfiting advances of men far older, perhaps overweight and cloaked in the body odour that permeates the streets of Mingora, Swat's biggest city.
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do the following quotes from the article "celebrate" the dancing girls? or does it present the bitter, ugly realities these exploited women face?
"Shabana says her sister is illiterate, likes her job and is happy. But deadened eyes give a different impression.
...
She looks apathetic, even bored. Perhaps she has already too often endured discomfiting advances of men far older, perhaps overweight and cloaked in the body odour that permeates the streets of Mingora, Swat's biggest city."
It only shows the writer trying to make reader feel sorry for them and consider them victim and feel sympathetic to them. Still, the title and meaning of success of operation should not be related to this statement.
The military objectives, which are the only thing described as a success in this article, were to retake the area from the Taliban.
What will people reading the article think after reading it? Clearly depends on the person doesnt it, you and I have formed very different opinions about it. I have taken away:
The taliban had driven away these girls from their homes through gruesome violence. The military has been successful in removing the Taliban from Swat, and so they have returned. Note that this is not the only female group that have been able to return to Swat,teachers and healthcare workershave also been able to return as a result of the success of the military’s objectives.
A very human picture of the dancing girls themselves, showing them to be the exploited creatures they are. Any profiting off another’s nudity or sex tends to be expoitative, and the local political establishment, NGOs and public in general should do their duties in that regard.
You are making up the scenario now after being told you made hasty comments even without reading the article.
Only the bold part of your #1 paragraph can be accepted true. Hence the criticism of this article.
Your #2 paragraph is your figment of imagination. Nothing to do with the article.
And before you consistently try to fool myself without success and others, let’s read the article here. Complete copy.
Feel free to find ANY statement there where NGO or even exploitement of these girls was mentioned or suggestion made to help them.
Come on. Who are you trying to fool other than yourself?
I am sorry if you feel cornered.
**Dancing girls of Swat back in business **
**MINGORA: **Their cousin was kidnapped and killed in a hail of bullets - her body dumped at a roundabout, dripping blood. That was 15 months ago when the Taliban roamed Swat with impunity.
Today Shabana and her sister Shabnam are back in business, proffering their favours and their dancing skills for discerning gentlemen with cash to spare now that Pakistan’s army say they have pushed back the extremists.
Business starts towards dusk. As the sun dips in the sky, Shabnam is already with a client. Aged 16, she has the fresh-faced beauty of youth.
“We received death threats earlier, but not now,” she says, a year since the army offensive began and nine months since commanders declared the northwestern valley, carpeted with mountains and peach trees, free of Taliban.
Shabana says her sister is illiterate, likes her job and is happy. But deadened eyes give a different impression.
Northwest Pakistan has suffered encroaching Muslim conservatism for years and in July 2007 radical cleric Maulana Fazlullah launched a Taliban insurgency to impose a harsh brand of Islamic law across Swat.
Dancing, music, art and films were outlawed by the militia and retribution was death or flogging, particularly for those associated with prostitution.
Shabnam straps leather pads covered in small silver-coloured bells to her ankles. Pashtu pop blasting out of the stereo jars in a small guest room as she stamps her feet, wiggles her hips and flicks the bangles jingling on her arms.
She looks apathetic, even bored. Perhaps she has already too often endured discomfiting advances of men far older, perhaps overweight and cloaked in the body odour that permeates the streets of Mingora, Swat’s biggest city.
Shabana is 24 and has already been working for nine years. A thick crust of dead skin lines her feet. Shabnam is now the one in the limelight.
The mere fact that they are back in their meticulously clean quarters on the first floor of a house tucked away in a back street, attests to the success of Pakistan’s military campaign.
“The Taliban earlier threatened this whole street over their FM radio, telling us to stay at home like all the other ladies,” said Shabana.
After their cousin’s murder, they fled terrified to Peshawar, struggling to eke out an existence among clients they didn’t know and wondering if they would ever be able to return home.
Then Pakistan sent thousands of troops into Swat, diverting forces away from the border with India following public uproar and international embarrassment over the Taliban commandeering one of the country’s top holiday destinations.
“The situation has normalised. There is no danger. People are coming. Through the army we have security,” said Shabana, nervously flicking off call after call on her mobile.
“Sometimes I get fed up and turn the phone off,” she says, embarrassed. “I get messages all day. It’s the men who can’t speak words who speak this way.”
The sisters say there is no threat but they exist on the fringes of a conservative society in a city where security is tense.
Their versions of Pakistan’s traditional baggy trousers and shirts, are slashed at the ankle and upper arm. They go without headscarfs and their readiness to even shake hands with men seems shockingly intimate in Swat.
Respectable women outside cloak themselves in dupattas - shawls rammed onto the eyebrows and folded over the nose, with billowing material disguising even the bulkiest body from neck to calf.
In Pakistan, dancing girls are born into the trade. Shunned by mainstream society, daughters have no option but take up the family business when their mother’s beauty wanes, or in this case when Shabana’s mother died.
The man whom the sisters call father keeps stern watch. Before crossing the threshold, AFP journalists waited in the street while a messenger went up to check they were invited.
“There are 10 to 12 dancing girls in this street. Strangers are not allowed to come here. You can only come through a references,” says Shabana.
Even her true identity is doubtful. She uses the same name as her murdered cousin. “People just look at our flesh, they don’t care about our names,” she said softly, by way of explanation.
Re: Pak Military wins... the dancing girls are back!
because articles been taken from dawn, i can believe the writer takes special pride in the resumption of this trade. this makes even more sense when you look at the fact that dawn is sworn to 'moderatism' so its either allow it (dancing/prostitution) or follow the islamic line - which was offered by the students. i do applaud dawn for not stringing pakistanis along by deception in constantly switching moral values
i do believe the residents of swat are muslims so whats stopping them from getting rid of this menace from their backstreets? criminal gangs?
i personally think one needs to decide why they want rid of the girls, if its for religion then get your punishments/forgiveness/methods from religion aswell, and if its not for religion then do you have any moral right to stop anyone doing whatever they want?
So what do you have to say after I edited my post?
My original question remains: What do you think was the goal of the operation?
Freedom of people as a whole or letting young girls dancing on street, what will someone reading the article think after reading it?
The purpose of the operation was to establish the writ of the state.
Taliban are lucky that they were kicked out by the Pak army.
Had these Taliban did the same harampuna in the time of Mohammed pbuh or during Khalufah, and challenged the writ of the state, the following would have been done.
All Taliban males of fighting age would have been slaughtered.
All young boys and girls in the Taliban household would have become slaves
All grown up women of Taliban household would have been "married" to the Pak government officials.
However we live in a different era,
And Taliban have been let go and their families in general have not even been touched.
So do not worry about dancing girls.
Worry about the possible husher nusher of Talibots that many on this board sympathize with (if not actively support them).
Sorry to use this tough words. And I apologize if someone takes them personally. But it boggles ones mind to see "people born to Pakistani parents" and living a relatively comfortable life in the West,
are
hell bent on destroying Pakistan.
So unfortunate. So so unfortunate.
p.s. I don't come to other threads. It just caught my eye and wanted to remind some posters that their cronies have it good in Pakistan. And it would be even better if they stop suicide bombing and spreading jihadi terror.
Woah. Heres the crux of the question. WHY is that worthy of criticism? Lets just stick to this part now, since we agree on it. So to repeat what we agree on:
The military has been successful in removing the Taliban from Swat, and so they have returned.
Explain to us why this particular statement, which we both agree on, is worthy of criticism.
The bolded bit is my prescription for what should be done. If we wish to stick with what the article says, it merely presents a nuanced picture of the lives of these girls, and much of the picture is that of exploitation.
Thank you.
The exploitation is apparent. Here are some of the details that point to expoitation:
Aged 16.. But deadened eyes give a different impression. She looks apathetic, even bored. Perhaps she has already too often endured discomfiting advances of men far older, perhaps overweight and cloaked in the body odour…
Shabana is 24 and has already been working for nine years. A thick crust of dead skin lines her feet. In Pakistan, dancing girls are born into the trade. Shunned by mainstream society, daughters have no option but take up the family business when their mother’s beauty wanes, or in this case when Shabana’s mother died. Even her true identity is doubtful. She uses the same name as her murdered cousin. “People just look at our flesh, they don’t care about our names,” she said softly, by way of explanation.
Note that none of these is in any way a celebratory picture of prostitution.
And I think thats all the basis there is for the supposition that there is any pride/joy/celebration about girls being exploited. You guys began with a hypothesis and wish to twist the english language to fit the article to it.
Firstly there is nothing wrong with religion influencing our moral judgements. Though there is difference with the Taliban on the approaches to deal with social vices, broadly speaking Pakistani society sans the Taliban does often utilize religious values to judge actions.
However it is not accurate to say that without religion there would be no basis to stop the prostitution/dancing. For example Iceland recently banned all strip clubs, making it illegal for any business to ‘profit off an employee’s nudity’ (which would also cover prostitution etc).
