Re: Pak Judiciary 3rd most corrupt institution - TI
Judiciary was never free in Pakistan, lawyers and judges were never angels in Pakistan (or anywhere for that matter), law enforcement has been selective always, and all these factors sum up to the judiciary undoubtedly always being corrupt. Unfortunately the brunt of all miseries that had been building up and hovering over for 60 yrs have all dropped over Musharraf, be it misguided jihadi terrorism, the freedom (or lack of it) of media, or the corruption and selective functioning of the judiciary under judges who have always been influenced by the influential and powerful.
Re: Pak Judiciary 3rd most corrupt institution - TI
In reference, allegations against CJ that we know, is nothing to do with CJ judgments or what judgments he could be expected to give in future. Thus when people (like Atizaz Ahsan, CJ lawyers, and corrupts behind CJ) talks about these things, they in reality make assumptions to misguide others. CJ was actually considered as President’s man. President Musharraf could have appointed anyone from amongst Supreme Court judges to the post of CJ without any problem, but President decided for Chaudhri Iftikhar and promoted him to CJ post (I believe that Chaudhri Iftikhar promotion was because he was from Balochistan, and President wanted to give comfort to Balochistan to show them that they are not ignored province of Pakistan).
As for reference, it is to do with Chaudhri Iftikhar misusing the office while he was judge and later CJ, to promote himself, promote his son, get his son government appointments, and asking of entitlements he was not entitled to (there could be some financial misdealing too).
Let see the difference between corrupt CJ and incorruptible person in another important and crucial post:
Lt Gen Shahid Aziz is also President’s man. President appointed him as chief of NAB. Being Chairman of National Accountability Bureau (NAB) has to be most lucrative post for any corrupt, but it is a very demanding post for someone honest and clean. Here is story of a person who is honest, incorruptible, and clean. Even though NAB faces oppositions bashing for being used as tool by President in his politics of wheeling-dealing, if that was the case, do you think that President would have appointed a clean person (Lt-Gen Shahid Aziz) as Chairman of NAB?
If Chairman NAB Lt-Gen (retd) Shahid Aziz was corrupt, would you think that he would have tried to leave NAB Chairmanship? Let see the difference from incorruptible person Chairman NAB Lt-Gen Shahid Aziz and compare him with corrupt person CJ Chaudhri Iftikhar (note, both are appointee of President).
From:
Now the difference between an honest person NAB chairman and dishonest person CJ is obvious.
When Lt Gen Aziz did not liked to use 2800cc car that he was not entitled and went for 1600cc car that he was entitled, even though 2800cc car was available to him, CJ forced the executives to provide him with several cars of over 1600cc, though CJ was entitled to 1600cc car (actually he loves Mercedes). On top of that, he forced (or demanded) helicopters to move around, that he was not entitled. In contrast, here is an honest man (NAB Chairman) that even returns extra employee at his residence from his own department (NAB), because he was not entitled (and asked his staff to deduct their salary from his own pocket, just because they were deputed at his residence).
Further, CJ is accused that he used his office to promote his son, got him admission to medical college (forcing Chief Minister to get him admission on CM seats), used his office to get him government job, used his office to get him special training and move him to police department, used his office to reprimand Jang-newspaper chief when they published stories of his son, used his office as despot in dealing with other lawyers. Further there could be allegations of financial malpractice too, as it was alleged that his son was driving BMW (a car that CJ could not have afforded on his salary of CJ). [Well, these are some of allegations, rest are there but still unpublicized, as most allegations that I mentioned is from Bukhari’s letter that got published]
I hoped that CJ was innocent of all those allegations. It is very sad if these allegations are true, and once these allegations are made, CJ need to answer them as soon as possible for the integrity of his post. If CJ is guilty of all these allegations, how can such CJ could do justice to others? Obviously, by promoting his son, getting him admission and job that he was not entitled to, and asking for more than his entitlement, he has done injustice to others. If he was one in executive post, one can be scornful (and all know that Pakistan has seen many corrupt executives, that is different matter), but if Chief Justice is corrupt, how can one expect such CJ to provide justice to all Pakistanis, rich and poor alike?
**Hence, I believe that President has done a good job and favour to CJ by sending reference against CJ and gave him opportunity to clear himself from all allegations (that is, if CJ is innocent of all allegations). But again it is sad that instead of clearing allegations, CJ has made things political and protesting, but for what? Not that he wants to clear the allegations against him and prove himself honest, but that he should be immune of any enquiry on his deeds. **
I am concerned (as any honest Pakistani should be) that Pakistan has many corrupts on various crucial posts, but I still believe that position of Chief Justice is most important of all post when it comes to corruption, and certainly I could not condone a corrupt CJ just because there are corrupts on various other posts. A corrupt CJ means that whole judiciary becoming corrupt and if judiciary becomes corrupt, it would be a sad day for average Pakistanis. Not sad day for people like President Musharraf, who is powerful with army behind him, and have enough resource to buy justice from corrupt judiciary, but average poor Pakistanis who could only hope for relief from judiciary, but could not buy corrupt justice.
I believe that all those that are lining up behind CJ are people who like corruption even in judiciary, and thus supporting corrupt CJ.
Just imagine that if someone deserve to get admitted in medical college and some judge used their influence to get their son admitted and he is left out, or that he is suppose to get job on merit, but some judge used his influence to get that job for his son whereas he did not get the job, where would he go? To court with CJ and judges that has done the same for their own sons? Who would like to have such CJ in a country and expect justice to be done?
Re: Pak Judiciary 3rd most corrupt institution - TI
clean house, judiciary, military, bureaucracy, political parties.
Musharraf has been unable to dleiver on it, and has failed in cleaning the country ut has become part of it.
Unless he or anyone in future has the balls to do the massive cleanup that is required, I have an issue with that regime on this topic.
Re: Pak Judiciary 3rd most corrupt institution - TI
Who is not a corrupt here in this country? In 1997 elections, a ptcl divisional engineer paid 3 million telephone bill of Mr Makhdoom Amin Faheem! Now you can imagine how much that engineer have earned through corruption?
THESE days one often comes across the slogan “Lawyers founded Pakistan, lawyers will save it too”. Without question, Pakistan was founded by a brilliant lawyer, Mohammad Ali Jinnah, and the legal fraternity in Pakistan today have every right to uphold the rule of law in the country.
But do the lawyers who are campaigning, on the issue of the presidential reference, forget that Jinnah always stood for ‘ordered progress’, moderation, gradualism and constitutionalism?
Lawyers of Pakistan, today, cannot negate that Mr Jinnah found “the injection of violence into politics” least acceptable. While the issue of the presidential reference is in the apex court, it has turned into a gory political brawl. When in 1920, Gandhi got elected as the president of the Home Rule League; Mr Jinnah resigned from it, on the same point.
“Your extreme programme has, for the moment, struck the imagination, mostly of the inexperienced youth and the ignorant and the illiterate. All this means disorganisation and chaos.”
But, readers, these days, go through the chaotic news content, “Lawyers manhandled journalists”, “Lawyers clash at the Supreme Court gate”, “Lawyers beat up policemen with sticks and umbrellas” (May 4).
Lawyers of this nation should take pride in the fact that Mr Jinnah took their profession to new heights. In December 2004, the BBC conducted a poll for “South Asia’s greatest- ever leader”, and readers were given 16 names to choose from.
The poll proved to be ‘enormously popular’, according to the BBC. Vote results showed that Mohammad Ali Jinnah (lawyer) topped with 39 per cent of the votes, Mahatma Gandhi (lawyer) 36 per cent, Jawaharlal Nehru 0 per cent (failed lawyer). In this poll 335,422 votes were cast.
Unfortunately, today some black-clad persons belonging to Mr Jinnah’s profession try not to miss any photo opportunity, whether it comes from jumping on the roof of a car, or tearing apart someone’s clothes or uniform. On the other hand, Mr Jinnah as a lawyer exercised his legal faculties not political fantasies. He fought his legal battles in curia (inside court). According to Joachim Alva: “He cast a spell on the courtroom, unruffled by the worst circumstances”.
If lawyers really want the rule of law in Mr Jinnah’s Pakistan, they should heed the advice of another lawyer of the same stature; Abraham Lincoln: “We must disenthrall ourselves, and then shall save our country”.
Re: Pak Judiciary 3rd most corrupt institution - TI
If every lawyer was half the Jinnah we had, we wouldn’t be in this mess. And while I agree that lawyers have crossed the limits on some occasions but overall the lawyer movement has comparatively been violence free going by Pakistani standards. I think in this context Imran did the right thing by not forcing his way out of Lahore by car or train. He said he will not break any law. That’s Jinnah’s legacy. After Jinnah and Bhutto, Imran is the only real charismatic leader we can hope to have. Only time will tell if he’ll get there and how he will do if he does.
Re: Pak Judiciary 3rd most corrupt institution - TI
Saleem sahab.....whats the comparison ...where the Lt.General and where the Chief Justice of Pakistan...the third most powerful man of pakistan according to blue book,...and representation of one of the most important pillar of a state ...Judiacary....
Re: Pak Judiciary 3rd most corrupt institution - TI
When our Musharraf and PM can import bullet ..bomb proof cars loaded with anti-remote control devices of millions of Rs....and spends millions on pseudo jalsai in Rawalpindi..Dera Ghazi Khan etc..where all municipal cooperation..WASA..WAPDA and government teachers are forcibly brought...on cars and buses..millions of Rs. spend...and nobody raise a voice...why ??????
Re: Pak Judiciary 3rd most corrupt institution - TI
If every lawyer was half the Jinnah we had, we wouldn't be in this mess. And while I agree that lawyers have crossed the limits on some occasions but overall the lawyer movement has comparatively been violence free going by Pakistani standards. I think in this context Imran did the right thing by not forcing his way out of Lahore by car or train. He said he will not break any law. That's Jinnah's legacy. After Jinnah and Bhutto, Imran is the only real charismatic leader we can hope to have. Only time will tell if he'll get there and how he will do if he does.
I agree, it is however sad that our nation will NOT elect him. You know it and I know it, and that is sad. he is not perfect by any means, but he is heads and shoulders above the rest in terms of his ethics and sincerity..wait let me change that..knees and ankles above the rest.
but if elections were held today, you will have a 4 way power struggle by benazir-nawa-altaf-qazi & co
Re: Pak Judiciary 3rd most corrupt institution - TI
Saleem sahab.....whats the comparison ...where the Lt.General and where the Chief Justice of Pakistan...the third most powerful man of pakistan according to blue book,...and representation of one of the most importapillar of a state ...Judiacarynt ....
What an argument? You should know that, be it Lt-General or Chief Justice, whoever misuse their power are guilty and cannot be condoned. Chief Justice misusing the power is more crucial, as CJ is symbol of providing justice to all, indiscriminately, and if CJ is corrupt and misuses the power, whole justice system becomes questionable.
I compared two (CJ and Lt-Gen Aziz), because the sources about both are available. To me, if I had story of an incorruptible ‘court clerk’ that I could have quoted with reference, I would have used his example and compared him with CJ, so what? My purpose was to compare two persons that had opportunity of corruption, but one stayed incorruptible against all odds (Lt General Aziz or that could have been ‘court clerk’) and other became corrupt even at mundane level (CJ). Both are doing their duty (irrespective to what position they hold) and would be responsible of their deeds, but to any human (and also in front of Allah), corrupt at whatever post/position is a corrupt, that’s all.
A corrupt does not deserve any respect, whoever that maybe and whatever he maybe, rather higher the post of a corrupt, more disrespectable the corrupt is. [Allah nay izzat dee, mulk nay sar per baithayea, like yea admie ayesa nikla kay iss kay ba wajood na sharam rakhi na hiya, choti choti cheezon kay liya atna gir giya, kaisee bay sharmee kee baat hay? Kiya ayesay admiee ko koyie izzat milnee chahiya? Aap khud sonch saktay hain kay ayesay admie ko kaisay loog izzat day rahay hain aur day saktaa hay?]
To me, incorruptible court clerk or doorman is more respectable than CJ who is corrupt. After what you questioned, it makes me wonder if that is the case with you or not?
When our Musharraf and PM can import bullet ..bomb proof cars loaded with anti-remote control devices of millions of Rs....and spends millions on pseudo jalsai in Rawalpindi..Dera Ghazi Khan etc..where all municipal cooperation..WASA..WAPDA and government teachers are forcibly brought...on cars and buses..millions of Rs. spend...and nobody raise a voice...why ??????
As for entitlement about car ‘cc’ level, that is decided by government (executives) and I believe all government posts at whatever level (in all departments) is entitled to max of 1600 cc car. Exceptions are political posts (like President, Prime Minister, Governors, Chief Ministers and Ministers) or posts that uses higher ‘cc’ cars as job requirements. When CJ is entitled to 1600cc car, he could not justify using above 1600cc car in any way (just because his bum need smooth ride, does not mean that he breaks the entitlement law).
As for CJ, I think that it is equivalent to grade 21 or grade 22 posts. Even law minister is above CJ in hierarchy (that is true anywhere in the world). CJ is entitled to whatever that post is entitled to. CJ post is not post with exceptional circumstances, where a person needs to cater foreign delegates that needs higher ‘cc’ prestige cars, or that need to go to different inhospitable terrains or need to chase law breakers, and thus needs fast cars and jeeps.
**Note: **The person that head judiciary is not Chief Justice but Law minister. Same way, the person that heads army is not army chief but President. Persons that head all ministerial posts are not ministers but Prime Minister. Those who head different bureaucratic departments are not secretaries of those departments but Ministers. Those who head Universities are not Vice Chancellors of universities but provincial Governors, etc ...]
Re: Pak Judiciary 3rd most corrupt institution - TI
As for CJ, I think that it is equivalent to grade 21 or grade 22 posts. Even law minister is above CJ in hierarchy (that is true anywhere in the world). CJ is entitled to whatever that post is entitled to. CJ post is not post with exceptional circumstances, where a person needs to cater foreign delegates that needs higher ‘cc’ prestige cars, or that need to go to different inhospitable terrains or need to chase law breakers, and thus needs fast cars and jeeps.
I think you are not jocking.....:)
ministers....CMs..and Governors can use Mercedez and CJ of Pakistan not.....
Sir..plz... i request you to read Blue Book of Pakistan...where all designations with status are given and then tell me...the C in C...i think...comes on 8 or 9 place...while CJ comes on 3......
He is the representative of most powerful pillar of state ..Judiacary...he can negate the orders of PM and President as in steel mill case that why all this topi drama is going on......
do you know the powers of SC and CJ.....
he can check even the President is using 58 2(b) right or wrong...and can negate the breaking of National Assemblies and senate...Although Pakistan constitution allows him...to use this power...but SC is above the President and can negate the orders of president as SC did in 1993 with Nawaz Sharif as negated the orders of Ghulkam Ishaque Khan.....
Man...what you are talking about...Is CJ of pakistan ..is sheeda talli..majha gamma...feeka lallu type thing......
you are giving him ranks below a federal minister...jis ko koi moo bhi nahi lagata....
Re: Pak Judiciary 3rd most corrupt institution - TI
^^
CJ of Pakistan, yea I am talking about CJ of Pakistan, rather CJ of any country :) . I am not joking. It is you joking because you do not know the realities.:D
You are talking about CJ as if ... blah blah blah :) .. I am sure that if you go out on road and would ask that who was CJ of Pakistan before this CJ? or that when Ch Iftikhar became CJ? or that who appointed him CJ? Or that what was the reason for his appointment? 99.99 percent people would not be able to tell you answer for any one question.
If opposition politicians did not decided to use him for their own political reasons, no one would have bothered about him in Pakistan or anywhere in the world :).
You know all the rallies and procession backing CJ? It is combined strength of PPP, MMA, PML(N), ANP, TI and many others joined together (along with media help). Many of them hate each other. Do you think that these combined oppositions, that would contest election against each other as well as government parties, are strong enough to challenge any government (backed by army and establishment too)?
Believe me; I was expecting much better response from combined opposition on roads (with full support of media) than what I am seeing. Actually, I do not think that such show of combined opposition in population of 160 millions, could be threat to any government in power. :)
Re: Pak Judiciary 3rd most corrupt institution - TI
If every lawyer was half the Jinnah we had, we wouldn't be in this mess. And while I agree that lawyers have crossed the limits on some occasions but overall the lawyer movement has comparatively been violence free going by Pakistani standards. I think in this context Imran did the right thing by not forcing his way out of Lahore by car or train. He said he will not break any law. That's Jinnah's legacy. After Jinnah and Bhutto, Imran is the only real charismatic leader we can hope to have. Only time will tell if he'll get there and how he will do if he does.
True Flame, and would have been much better if the lawyers had also been as cautious, and less finger may have been raised against them and their ways of the moment and the past. Meanwhile Imran's decision to obey was good, and he did the right thing avoiding unwanted scenes. About his persona, yes, he is way above in stature as compared to the others. I would rate him not closely as ideal as Jinnah and would rate him much better than Bhutto, because charismatic as he may have been, he did consider the law his concubine. Imran is a hero to all of us and I considered him a savior when he first came into the scene, I too considered joining his PTI and of helping him in someway, but with time he like many others has lost focus on the right areas to address. He needs to observe his limitations at the moment and devise plans and strategy to be most productive with his available strength. That way he'll win back his lost supporters like me who felt he was a savior and had great hopes from him due to his hero status aswell as clean background etc.
Re: Pak Judiciary 3rd most corrupt institution - TI
^^
CJ of Pakistan, yea I am talking about CJ of Pakistan, rather CJ of any country :) . I am not joking. It is you joking because you do not know the realities.:D
You are talking about CJ as if ... blah blah blah :) .. I am sure that if you go out on road and would ask that who was CJ of Pakistan before this CJ? or that when Ch Iftikhar became CJ? or that who appointed him CJ? Or that what was the reason for his appointment? 99.99 percent people would not be able to tell you answer for any one question.
he gave relif to 6000 poor people on thier letters
written to CJ....
He is the man who dazed the whole world with his decion onbn Steel Mill..Cse..as first time in history...SC took such a bold decison against government and directly criticized the PM Shaukat Aziz..as he was the head of privitization Committe who sold 450
billion SM Karachi into 22 billion .....
he is the man who smashed the ISI..IB..and MI...agencies..fisrt time in Pakistan history...for what Gastapo state ..they turned into pakistan...by selling thier 400 people on money..as accepted by General in his book....
and you say...who know him..thats why people of Punjab came on streets like mad...when he arrived in Lahore...millions received him througout his 26 hours long journey.....
[quote]
If opposition politicians did not decided to use him for their own political reasons, no one would have bothered about him in Pakistan or anywhere in the world :).
[/quote]
^^
[quote]
You know all the rallies and procession backing CJ? It is combined strength of PPP, MMA, PML(N), ANP, TI and many others joined together (along with media help). Many of them hate each other. Do you think that these combined oppositions, that would contest election against each other as well as government parties, are strong enough to challenge any government (backed by army and establishment too)?
Believe me; I was expecting much better response from combined opposition on roads (with full support of media) than what I am seeing. Actually, I do not think that such show of combined opposition in population of 160 millions, could be threat to any government in power. :)
[/quote]
first..its legal issue...so CJ cannot show its full strenght..secondly...PPPP is dealing..so no full strenght...thirdly..lawyers are its real leaders/...not politicians...fourthly...BB and NS are bhogarais...and dearth of leadership....
still then...Government is killing people...creating mayhem in Karachi...killing Hammad Raza...beating and torturing the Journalists...today...in Karachi...3 journalists were threatened with bullets pasted on thier cars....and letters of death threat....2 were included in those list which was published by Muthaiida Rabta Council.....
if everything is fine...why government is becoming mad.....
Re: Pak Judiciary 3rd most corrupt institution - TI
Who is not a corrupt here in this country? In 1997 elections, a ptcl divisional engineer paid 3 million telephone bill of Mr Makhdoom Amin Faheem! Now you can imagine how much that engineer have earned through corruption?