Rumours have it that both the pak. & israel leaders have once again shown an interest to bury their differences & recognise one another.The Israeli foreign minister has described pak. to be on the list of countries with whom it would like to warm to. Israel feels that pak. can make a big contribution towards the palestinian saga..it would interesting to get peoples views on this once unthinkable story.
Re: Pak/Israel ties
hmmm
i dont think pak should even recognise israel until israel grants palestinians their full rights, negotiations/diplomatic contact is a different matter altogether and will be a much later step
i dont care about it being better for pakistan's standng in the world diplomatically etc or trade opportunities etc to develop relations with israel
recognising israel before she grants palestinians their rights means accepting the illegal occupation of palestinian territory and that definitely is a NO
so no
Re: Pak/Israel ties
Irem get a life seriously. The only thing that Pakistanis and Palistinians have in common beside Islam is both start with a P thats all. Israel and Pakistan have more in common when it comes to ideology on which these two nations were created. I believe RF (mod) actually pointed it out in one of the threads in this forum. I have an interesting paper in WA under I love Isreal thread. Its on page 2 or 3 of the thread. Memo55.pdf. Why dont you read that and then we can discuss this issue more intellignety rather than basing our opinions based on a friday sermon.
Waisay I know Irem that you are mad at me laikin challo khair he, mithai kha lo aur khush raho, khafa honay ki zurzurat nahi. ;)
Re: Pak/Israel ties
This smacks of the same bygone, yet prototypical inferiority complex that inflicted Pakistan's poor neighbors to the east -- that some how being associated with Pakistan and proclaiming that they and Pakistanis were one and the same, some how elevated them in the eyes of the rest of the world -- The problem is that Israelis as Pakistanis were in the past are not particularly receptive of the notion. A country as backward as Pakistan has little quid pro quo to offer Israel. This is certainly not a mutually beneficial relationship.
Re: Pak/Israel ties
No che actually pakistan and israel can both benefit from each other. Economically and Militarily. I know it is hard to believe but pakistani soldiers have actually helped israel in the past indirectly, BTW under the command of Zia-ul-Haq. Read the memo that I told Irem.
Re: Pak/Israel ties
Oh ok I did not know Israelis were in the market for a license produced chinese T-98 christiened (misnomer) Al-Khalid, when they have the whole series of world beating Merkeva tanks.
I could be wrong on that front, maybe Pakistan is offering them a stake in the new medium tech (third generation) fighter, FC-1, that the chinese are putting together for Pakistan, but then again Israelis themselves have sold the technology to a fourth generation high tech fighter the lavi to Chinese so that will be going backwards for them. Not to mention that endless number of fourth and fifth generation F-16Is and F-15Is at their disposal makes any cooperation in this field rather unproductive.
I don't know may be PAC Kamra has made some break through in the avionics technology that the Israelis are itching to get their hands on. But then again Israel has a world class electronics/avionics industry, IAI and Rafael have unlimited R&D budgets bankrolled by US tax payers and the best brains money could buy to continue their development of innovative weapons systems.
Its gotta be the nuclear field, where Pakistan can offer Israel innovative ways to proliferate the nuclear technology, I got too excited there, may be its how to optimize the usefulness of 200 nuclear weapons the state of Israel possess, only China, France, Russia and US has more nuclear weapons.
Opportunities abound, I'd say......
The less said about economy the better, India from this region fulfill whatever Israel desire and even India at times has difficulty proving its worth to Israel and satisfying their needs.
Israelis were forced to barter some of the weapons that they were selling to the Indians in return they got some license produced choppers that India puts together and which Israel does not need. So any usefullness of Pakistan to Israel in this department is minimal to say the least. Israel is too small a market for Pakistan to market its commodities, there is only so much agricultural products and garments they can buy.
On the issue of Zia Ul Haq helping Israeli military, I think you overestimate the PLO, their nature of threat to the state of Israel has been a nuisance if anything. If Zia Ul Haq had commanded its forces to aid Israel as it defended itself from some pan-arab assault a la the yom kippur war, then I would say there was cooperation and mutual benefit. In fact on the contrary Pakistani fighter pilots flying for Jordanian, Iraqi and Syrian Air Forces have shot down IDAF planes both during the six day war and the Yom Kippur War. Sqn Ldr Saiful Islam's name comes to mind in this regard......
Re: Pak/Israel ties
Wow I am impressed, you must be in marketing, I read your post and thought this was some developed nation, then I looked again and it was pakistan. It's not just military that runs the economy. There have been other instances where Pakistan has bought Israeli goods thrugh a neutral country. Instead of paying gratuities to other nations for conducting business, I think it would be productive to cut the middle man out. Planes!!!!! mind taking out the "s" from planes it was one plane (and it is still considered a conspiracy theory).
Re: Pak/Israel ties
Uptil now we hvae been doing that, but now maybe the Paleestinians should stop recognizing India till India grants freedom to Kashmir
This ummah brotherhood and concern is only visible in Pakistan.
Re: Pak/Israel ties
I agree to that though I respect Irem always.
why not Israel? when we recongnise India when its still in Kashmir??
personaly no one cares, how many countries left in the world that doesnt recognise Israel? it may be a bad state or illegel. but its real.
we have two options, recognise Isreal and talk to them if we have issues or we dont recognise it and beat the drums.
ties between Israel and Pakistan are not much based on co operation between two countries. none of them needs eachother economically.
Re: Pak/Israel ties
Just who cares if Pakistan recognizes Israel or not?
Re: Pak/Israel ties
u said it brotha’
Re: Pak/Israel ties
Even were we to put aside the moral reasons for which Pakistan does not recognise Israel, from the perspective of our geopolitical ties we should not recognise Israel without our established key strategic partners in the Middle East doing so first. There is no need to throw aside our old, Muslim allies in the hope that perhaps Jewish ones might feel like doing more for us.
Thinking that Pakistan and Israel could develop military ties is a vain hope, in light of the decade-old headstart that India as had. Israel will now always be much more inclined to supply India with arms and training, and it is not reasonable at all to expect that Israel has any motivation at all to strengthen Pakistan against India.
Economically, there is little produced in Israel that Pakistan could not source from elsewhere, cheaper, instead. Israel's main exports are machinery and equipment, software, cut diamonds, agricultural products, chemicals, textiles and apparel.
Machiney and equipment can be purchase cheaper from China (both manufacturing and transport is cheaper from there).
Software - this is a sector which the government is trying to protect in Pakistan. If we really must import software and related expertise, we should focus on doing it from India as part of confidence building measures. Indian software is cheaper than Israeli.
Agricultural products - both Pakistan and India are major agricultural nations themselves
Chemicals, textiles, apparel - all of these are major economic sectors in India and Pakistan.
Israel is unlikely to offer Pakistan anything militarily because that would damage its long establish links to India.
Israel has virtually nothing to offer economically to Pakistan.
Pakistan has nothing to lose by recognising Israel except its own honour.
Re: Pak/Israel ties
^
point being, if Pakistan wants to/ does not want to recognize Israel it should do it for its own reasons and in its own interests and not for anything else.
Re: Pak/Israel ties
Conspiracy theory my, your knowledge in this field is one of ignorance at best. One the other end of the spectrum, perhaps its deliberately out of synch with reality to fit your insidious agenda. Instead of bullying some ill-informed, sentimental and idealistic college going teenagers, your energies would be better served doing some rudimentary research on the subject of Pakistani fighter jocks, much to your dismay, flying for the A-rabs and shooting down Israeli planes, yes planes, two Mirage IIICJ (J stands for jewish by the way) and a F-4 Phantom in '73 by Mohammad Hatif, couple of Super Mysteres.
Infact all the reputable aviation publications and sources, those who are in the business of researching these matters not frequenting some juvenille discussion forum to impress some teenangers because they fancy themselves as some old sage, do credit Pakistani aviators with those kills against the IDAF…
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_324.shtml
**23Oct73 EAF MiG-21MF ****M.Hatif ****? ****F-4E ****IDF/AF v **
**26Apr74 ****67 Sqn SyAF ****MiG-21F-13 ****S.Alvi ****R-13 ****Mirage IIICJ **IDF/AF
Here is an account straight from the horse’s mouth: Courtesy of Pakdef.info
‘Shahbaz’ over Golan
Written by: M Kaisar Tufail
Post-haste summons for volunteers found an eager band of sixteen PAF fighter pilots on their way to the Middle East, in the midst of the 1973 Ramadan war. After a gruelling Peshawar-Karachi-Baghdad flight on a PAF Fokker, they were whisked off to Damascus in a Syrian jet. Upon arrival, half the batch was told to stay back in Syria while the rest were earmarked for Egypt. By the time the PAF batch reached Cairo, Egypt had agreed to a cease-fire; it was therefore decided that they would continue as instructors. But in Syria it was another story.
The batch in Syria was made up of pilots who were already serving there on deputation (except one), but had been repatriated before the war. Now they were back in familiar surroundings as well as familiar aircraft, the venerable MiG-21. They were posted to No 67 squadron, ‘Alpha’ Detachment (all PAF). Hasty checkouts were immediately followed by serious business of Air Defence Alert scrambles and Combat Air Patrols from the air base at Dumayr.
Syria had not agreed to a ceasefire, since Israeli operations in Golan were continuing at a threatening pace. Israeli Air Force missions included interdiction under top cover, well supported by intense radio jamming as the PAF pilots discovered. The PAF formation using the call-sign “Shahbaz” was formidable in size – all of eight aircraft. Shahbaz soon came to stand out as one that couldn’t be messed with, in part because its tactics were innovative and bold. Survival, however, in a jammed-radio environment was concern number one. As a precaution, the Pakistanis decided to switch to Urdu for fear of being monitored in English. Suspicions were confirmed during one patrol, when healthy Punjabi invectives hurled on radio got them wondering if Mossad had recruited a few Khalsas for the job!
After several months of sporadic activity, it seemed that hostilities were petering out. While the Shahbaz patrols over Lebanon and Syria had diminished in frequency, routine training sorties started to register a rise. Under these conditions it was a surprise when on the afternoon of 26th April 1974, the siren blasted from the air-shafts of the underground bunker. Backgammon boards were pushed aside and the “qehva” session was interrupted as all eight pilots rushed to their MiGs; they were airborne within minutes. From Dumayr to Beirut, then along the Mediterranean coast till Sidon, and a final leg eastwards, skirting Damascus and back to base – this was the usual patrol, flown at an altitude of 6 km.
The limited fuel of their early model MiG–21F permitted just a 30 minutes sortie; this was almost over when ground radar blurted out on the radio that two bogeys (unidentified aircraft) were approaching from the southerly direction ie Israel. At this stage fuel was low and an engagement was the least preferred option. Presented with a fait accompli, the leader of the formation called a defensive turn into the bogeys. Just then heavy radio jamming started, sounding somewhat similar to the “takka tak” at our meat joints, only more shrill. While the formation was gathering itself after the turn, two Israeli F-4E Phantoms sped past almost head-on, seemingly unwilling to engage. Was it a bait?
Flt Lt Sattar Alvi, now the rear-most in the formation, was still adjusting after the hard turn when he caught sight of two Mirage-III-CJ zooming into them from far below. With no way of warning the formation of the impending disaster, he instinctively decided to handle them alone. Peeling away from his formation, he turned hard into the Mirages so that one of them overshot. Against the other, he did a steep reversal dropping his speed literally to zero. (it takes some guts to let eight tons of metal hang up in unfriendly air!) The result was that within a few seconds the second Mirage filled his gun-sight, the star of David and all. While Sattar worried about having to concentrate for precious seconds in aiming and shooting, the lead Mirage started to turn around to get Sattar. Thinking that help was at hand, the target Mirage decided to accelerate away. A quick-witted Sattar reckoned that a missile shot would be just right for the range his target had opened up to. A pip of a button later, a K13 heat-seeker sped off towards the tail of the escaping Mirage. Sattar recollects that it wasn’t as much an Israeli aircraft as a myth that seemed to explode in front of him. (The letter ‘J’ in Mirage-IIICJ stood for ‘Jewish’, it may be noted.) He was tempted to watch the flaming metal rain down, but with the other Mirage lurking around and fuel down to a few hundred litres, he decided to exit. Diving down with careless abandon, he allowed a couple of Sonic bangs over Damascus. (word has it that the Presidential Palace wasn’t amused). His fuel tanks bone dry, Sattar made it to Dumayr on the vapours that remained.
As the other formation members started to trickle in, the leader, Sqn Ldr Arif Manzoor anxiously called out for Sattar to check if he was safe. All had thought that Sattar, a bit of a maverick that he was, had landed himself in trouble. Shouts of joy went up on the radio, however, when they learnt that he had been busy shooting down a Mirage.
The Syrians were overwhelmed when they learnt that the impunity and daring of the Pakistani pilots had paid off. Sattar was declared a blood brother by the Syrians, for he had shared in shedding the blood of a common enemy, they explained.
Sattar’s victim Captain M Lutz of No 5 Air Wing based at Hatzor, ejected out of his disintegrating aircraft. It has been learnt that the Mirages were on a reconnaissance mission, escorted by Phantoms of No 1 Air Wing operating out of Ramat David Air base. The Phantoms were to trap any interceptors while the Mirages carried out the recce. Timely warning by the radar controller (also from the PAF) had turned the tables on the escorts, allowing Sattar to sort out the Mirages.
The dogfight over Golan is testimony to the skills of all PAF pilots, insists Sattar, as he thinks anyone could have got the kill had he been “Shahbaz-8” on that fateful day. Sattar and his leader Sqn Ldr Arif Manzoor, were awarded two of Syria’s highest decorations for gallantry, the Wisaam Faris and Wisaam Shuja’at. The government of Pakistan awarded them a Sitara-e-Jur’at each. Sattar, an epitome of a fighter pilot, befittingly went on to command PAF’s elite Combat Commanders’ School and the premier PAF Base Rafiqui. He retired recently as an Air Commodore.
5 June 1967
**Pilot Name **Flt. Lt. Saiful Azam PAF
**AF Unit **Royal Jordanian Air Force
**Aircraft Flown **Hawker Hunter
**Base **Mafrak AB
**Kills **Jordan 1 Israeli Air Force (IDAF)
**Aircraft/Pilot **Super Mystere B-2 Over Mafrak AB, Jordan
6 IAF S. Mysteres Vs. 4 RJAF Hunters
Pilot Name 7 June 1967 Flt. Lt. Saiful Azam
**Aircraft Flown ** PAF Iraqi Air Force Hawker Hunter (S. No. 702)
Base H-3 AB, Iraq.
**Kills ** 1 Israeli Air Force Mirage IIICJ
1 Israeli Air Force Vatour IIN Bomber
M.IIICJ pilot was Gideon Dror, IAF
while Vatour IIN bomber was the IAF Vatour flight lead In a s
single sortie over H-3 AB,
Iraq at 1130 hours.
4 IAF M.IIIs & 4 Vatours Vs. 4 Iraq AF Hunters
**Total: **3 Air-to-Air Kills
Re: Pak/Israel ties
OK che so I am supposed to believe PAF propaganda and not some think tank? Yeah my only job in life is to show you teenagers the right path.
BTW to have an informed decision it is better to read other point of views not just the BS that Pak army throws at you little boys.;)
Khafa mut ho, OK Pakistan is better developed than U.S and U.K combined. Happy Now.
Re: Pak/Israel ties
Shak Kills…thank you so much for those kind words brother, im really honored 
thanks very much. and although i did not mention it before, i always respect your opinion as well
Spock & Shak Kills I get your point. But following the Islamic concept (though many think its too “goody goody” but I still do believe in it) that even if someone doesn’t grant you your rights you should still grant them theirs. So even if Palestine is not reciprocating and denouncing India, we should still renounce Israel I think. Besides, maybe Palestine has some majboori, I mean maybe they can’t afford to antagonise India since they’re already in a vulnerable position.
Verizon I am not khafa 
And life…yeah I do need one badly :halo: any idea kahan dastyaab hae 
Re: Pak/Israel ties
irum, Maybe pakistan has a majboori & cant antagonise Israel ( are we talking about "whats in the best interest" policy here?)
Re: Pak/Israel ties
http://www.washtimes.com/upi-breaking/20050131-043554-6432r.htm
Some more info in this topic
Re: Pak/Israel ties
Of course Pakistan should recognise Israel, who cares for Arabs? Palestine Shalestine is not our problem, Jaan hai to jahaan hai, Muslim unity is just an illusion anyway, other Muslims look down on us Pakistanis for some reason, especially Arabs (gulf, north african, all who i've heard of and met, u can sense it), Iranians, Turks, most Afghans. And Indian Muslims hate us for political reasons but they don't look down on us which is bearable.
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Re: Pak/Israel ties
^ So where the pole is gona be in this flag ? I hope its not on the green side.