Re: Pak girls want music shops to close down
All POLITICAL merry go round
Not even worth a 2 liner in the newspapers.
The more exposure they get the more they will Uchaal Kood
With the current scenario in the pakistani political circles, this makes perfect sense, in fact, keep your fingers crossed for more such humorous episodes.
Re: Pak girls want music shops to close down
This is a great example of people misquoting Jinnah to further their secular agenda. To demonstrate the empty rhetoric in this quote we must go back to the reason why Pakistan was created and partition required. For this I quote Jinnah:
Now, we see that Jinnah believed that if non-muslims and muslims were brought together under the same government it would ultimately lead to the destruction of such a state, that politically muslims and non-muslims could not form a viable nation. So now the question must be asked, why would Jinnah say that in the ‘political sense’ muslims will cease to be muslims and hindus will cease to be hindus if he knew that this was not possible, infact the very thing he earlier foresaw leading to the ‘final destruction of any fabric that may be so built for the government of such a state’? Infact, this quote of yours goes against the two nation theory itself, that is to claim that muslims and non-muslims can’t form a just government. My advice would be to contemplate the implications of this quote and the two nation theory Spock, before ever reproducing it.
We must put this quote in its proper context if we are to understand it’s relevance.
During partition, most of the money, factories, educated people in Lahore were non-muslims, and Jinnah was trying to avoid the removal of a tax base which was required for nation building.
Population exchange between India, Pakistan and now Bangladesh is the rational conclusion of the Two Nation Theory.
Re: Pak girls want music shops to close down
weird people.. islam is not about forcing people into it
Re: Pak girls want music shops to close down
Thats true... Jinnah intended for Pakistan to be a nation for Muslims, but not really a "Islamic" country.
Muslims and Islam are not seperate, we are Muslims because of Islam so our country should be Islamic.
If our Islamic identity was not important then being Muslim was not important so why take such a drastic step and create a seperate country? Just so that we can't be ruled by somebody of a different identity? If Muslim is just another insignificant identity like ethnicity then most Pakistanis are still being ruled by those of other identities, I'd rather be ruled by a Punjabi or Pukhtun Sikh than a Secularist Urdu because the former has ethnic similarities with me whereas the latter has neither ethnic nor ideological/religious.
As for Jinnah, who cares? He was a mortal, Pakistan is the land of our forefathers, if Pakistan is a democracy then it's inhabitants have the right to choose their ideology and most Pakistanis want Islam.
Re: Pak girls want music shops to close down
Muslims and Islam are not seperate, we are Muslims because of Islam so our country should be Islamic.
If our Islamic identity was not important then being Muslim was not important so why take such a drastic step and create a seperate country? Just so that we can't be ruled by somebody of a different identity? If Muslim is just another insignificant identity like ethnicity then most Pakistanis are still being ruled by those of other identities, I'd rather be ruled by a Punjabi or Pukhtun Sikh than a Secularist Urdu because the former has ethnic similarities with me whereas the latter has neither ethnic nor ideological/religious.
As for Jinnah, who cares? He was a mortal, Pakistan is the land of our forefathers, if Pakistan is a democracy then it's inhabitants have the right to choose their ideology and most Pakistanis want Islam.
Muslims can be distinguished based on the simple fact that they all follow a certain relgion... Thats what I think Jinnah had in mind, a country where the majority are Muslim, a country made for Muslims, but not a country made for Islam...
Still, Pakistanis are free to be Muslim or secular or anything in between... Jinnah counts since he was the father of the nation, but he is dead and buried, and in the end Pakisan has to make its own destiny. One would hope that Pakistan doesnt turn into another Islamist state like Iran or Afghanistan even, where relgion becomes something oppresive instead of inspirational.
Re: Pak girls want music shops to close down
P-Paki, Please mention name of one country in the world who is doing well after bringing Islam in equation. Secular states thrive. Religion should be separate from state.
Re: Pak girls want music shops to close down
There is only one state that is officially secular, and is not doing too well (albeit there is a bit of a turn around in Turkey recently…and go figure, led by closet Islamists). Perhaps the most well to do Muslim state is Malaysia, which is not really secular by any means.
Pakistan, Iran, Saudi, and perhaps a few others (not counting Iraq as it is not stable by no fault of it’s own) are officially Islamic. All other Muslim states have brought Islam “into the equation” as it were.
The idea that secularism breeds success needs to be proven. If anything, Islam must be brought into the equation as it is in line with what the people expect…otherwise Muslim societies can never be at peace with themselves.
In any case, I can think of not a single Muslim state that is fully secular that is thriving. I mean..unless you consider Albania a success story. :halo:
Re: Pak girls want music shops to close down
Muslims can be distinguished based on the simple fact that they all follow a certain relgion... Thats what I think Jinnah had in mind, a country where the majority are Muslim, a country made for Muslims, but not a country made for Islam...
To quote Jinnah
We should have a State in which we could live and breathe as free men and which we could develop according to **our own lights and culture* and where principles of Islamic social justice could find free play*
and
You have to stand guard over the development and maintenance of **Islamic democracy,* Islamic social justice** and the equality of manhood in your own native soil. With faith, discipline and selfless devotion to duty, there is nothing worthwhile that you cannot achieve*
Yes, Jinnah did not want a theocracy, but Islamic states are not church/clerical run outfits as is the European (and so Jinnah's) understanding of the term.
Jinnah clearly had outlined a role of Islam in the state...albeit a vague and undefined one. The distinction between Muslim and Islam is a weak attempt at creating a secular Muslim identity...didn't exist at the time of Jinnah, and is only now being touted...and winning very little mindshare, I might add.
Re: Pak girls want music shops to close down
To quote Jinnah
We should have a State in which we could live and breathe as free men and which we could develop according to **our own lights and culture* and where principles of Islamic social justice could find free play*
and
You have to stand guard over the development and maintenance of **Islamic democracy,* Islamic social justice** and the equality of manhood in your own native soil. With faith, discipline and selfless devotion to duty, there is nothing worthwhile that you cannot achieve*
Yes, Jinnah did not want a theocracy, but Islamic states are not church/clerical run outfits as is the European (and so Jinnah's) understanding of the term.
Jinnah clearly had outlined a role of Islam in the state...albeit a vague and undefined one. The distinction between Muslim and Islam is a weak attempt at creating a secular Muslim identity...didn't exist at the time of Jinnah, and is only now being touted...and winning very little mindshare, I might add.
Perhaps, but I honestly think he intended for a state that would be inspired by by Islamic principles, but not a nation made solely for Islam... Much in the way that George Bush and probably many others among his party, would say that they are inspired by Christian values... Infact, I dont think there is any country in the world whose laws arent based atleast in principle on values originally espoused by relgion...
Jinnah's speeches point us in the direction of a secular Muslim country, it difficult to believe that he every wanted anything other then a Muslim majority country with secular values... If he didnt want a theocracym then whats left?
As for the role of Church and state as it applies in an Islamic country, I have yet to see any Islamic country where the role of relgion has had any beneficial role... The Islamic state may be different in kind, but same in quality to the church/clergy outfits of Europe.
So Jinnah may or may not have understood the complexity of the Islamic state in comparison to the European examples, but he was wise enough to realize that the nation run on religion is not one anyone should aspire for... History of such Islamic states speak for themselves...
And I dont think the concept of a seperate secular Muslim identity is such a new concept... Did the British not base their census of the Subcontinent on the followers of a particular relgion? The Muslim League wasnt really an Islamic party but a party comprised of people who simply followed Islam as their relgion (and many included Jinnah, who didnt follow it very closely)...
Re: Pak girls want music shops to close down
So religion has enough value to create a seperate country in its name but its not important enough to be ruled by? What sort of logic is that?
Muslims are Muslim because of Islam, Islam and Muslim are not mutually exclusive, if Islam is not important then neither is being Muslim and hence no need for a seperate country, maybe it should have remained a united India.
What is the whole point in creating a seperate state for Muslims? Muslim is not a nationality (in the ethnic sense), it is a religion.
Re: Pak girls want music shops to close down
Perhaps, but I honestly think he intended for a state that would be inspired by by Islamic principles, but not a nation made solely for Islam...
I have no idea what that means. Mr. Jinnah's TNT was preidcated on a threat to Muslim culture and reliigon, where the culture was primarily based on religion no less...only to turn his back on it when founding the state? Doesn't make much sense....I honeslty think Jinnah didn't give it two thoughts, so long as a state emerged free of Hindu domination.
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Jinnah's speeches point us in the direction of a secular Muslim country, it difficult to believe that he every wanted anything other then a Muslim majority country with secular values...
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THen that concept only made sense to him, as the Muslim/Islam distinction didn't exist in the mindset of those people who gave him mindshare.
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If he didnt want a theocracym then whats left?
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There is plenty of options, and I honestly think he was of the historical view that even the Kingships of various Islamic empires were not theoracies...and he would be mostly right in that assertion if he ever made it. Secularism arose from Europe and it's religious experience, which has nothing to do with Islam and it's historic role within the state.
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As for the role of Church and state as it applies in an Islamic country, I have yet to see any Islamic country where the role of relgion has had any beneficial role...
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Bit of a red herring...can't see one were strict adhernece to secular values has caused anything but more internal strife...Algeria, Turkey come to mind. Needless to say, I can't think of a single country that had advanced strictly due to it's adherence to secular principles. The pro-Soviet Arab states are in fact a good counter example.
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The Muslim League wasnt really an Islamic party but a party comprised of people who simply followed Islam as their relgion (and many included Jinnah, who didnt follow it very closely)...
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Yes, but Mr. Jinnah at all times had to pay a paen to it. He had no choice. His invocation of a distinct culture with a distinct set of principles is a direct reference to Muslim values as it pertains to Shariah...that was the contemporary understanding of Muslim Leaguers (none of whom to my understanidng wanted to abolish Shariah)...
Mr. Jinnah never clearly said what the role of religion in the state would be. This is not an accident. I stress, he only wanted a Muslim homeland that was run on "progressive" principles (whatever that means). Anytime the Sharia was brought up, he crushed the conversation...it was much too divisive, and could have spelt disaster for the Pakistan movement (it was no time for Shiah/Sunni sectarian infighting, for example). But by the same token, he could never spell out his hostility to Shairha...what self respecting Muslim would follow him?
In the end, Mr. Jinnah got what he wanted...and as you said, he's dead now, so it really doesn't matter what he wanted. Pakistan is what it is...an Islamic republic. It's much easier to move from here, than promise failure if it doesn't follow suit your ideological vision.
All ideolgoues on every side need to decide: is Pakistan worth having even if it doesn't fit your ideal view of how a state should be?
If the answer is no by anyone on any side, then imho TNT was a failed concept...and Pakistan should never have been.
Re: Pak girls want music shops to close down
do we have one agreed upon definition of islami nizaam and shariah btw?
Re: Pak girls want music shops to close down
do we have one agreed upon definition of islami nizaam and shariah btw?
This is a very good question, so I don't want to side step it. The answer is no, there is no agreed upon definition. However, good luck using that as a basis to abandon Shariah altogether. If presented a choice, most Sunnis and Shias (and I pick on them as for the most part you can get Sunnis and Shiahs to agree with each other) would opt for a partial Shariah over a complete abandonment of it. If anything, secularists merely add a third sect, the "none of the above" option, but in no way addressing possible sectarian issues in codifying Shariah.
What is the difference of a secularist imposing his views over both Sunni and Shia, than any proponent of either school imposing their views over the other? By the very same logic that states that religious polities can't work because of the varying opines...secularism can only work if all parties agree to it. Anything else is an imposition.
Secularism itself is a thorny issue. The history of Secularism in the Islamic world is one of tyranny and retrogressive politics. To invoke images of Jeffersonian democracy is a bit misleading...hasn't happened and most likely will not happen.
So I can rightly ask, just which flavor of secularism?
Keep in mind when I say secular, I mean it in the political sense, i.e. a forcible separation of religion from state, where the state is free to meddle with religion but not the other way around. In the generic sense, Islamic polities are secular in that they very much deal with worldly concerns.
Re: Pak girls want music shops to close down
pshtttttttt, what good is that going to do them?! 
awein…wasting their time along with others
Re: Pak girls want music shops to close down
So what?....they might be jahil but still they're muslims. They're your sisters in Islam.
You should not be making fun of them by calling them ninja or so.
These "sisters" kidnapped a six month old baby? Are you proud of that?
Re: Pak girls want music shops to close down
This is a very good question, so I don't want to side step it. The answer is no, there is no agreed upon definition. However, good luck using that as a basis to abandon Shariah altogether. If presented a choice, most Sunnis and Shias (and I pick on them as for the most part you can get Sunnis and Shiahs to agree with each other) would opt for a partial Shariah over a complete abandonment of it. If anything, secularists merely add a third sect, the "none of the above" option, but in no way addressing possible sectarian issues in codifying Shariah.
What is the difference of a secularist imposing his views over both Sunni and Shia, than any proponent of either school imposing their views over the other? By the very same logic that states that religious polities can't work because of the varying opines...secularism can only work if all parties agree to it. Anything else is an imposition.
Secularism itself is a thorny issue. The history of Secularism in the Islamic world is one of tyranny and retrogressive politics. To invoke images of Jeffersonian democracy is a bit misleading...hasn't happened and most likely will not happen.
So I can rightly ask, just which flavor of secularism?
Keep in mind when I say secular, I mean it in the political sense, i.e. a forcible separation of religion from state, where the state is free to meddle with religion but not the other way around. In the generic sense, Islamic polities are secular in that they very much deal with worldly concerns.
sorry man, the whole issue here is that people advocating shariah not only do not agree among themselves but they have not really put forward any coherent solutions for
I mean all our religious-political parties sat on their asses on issues like the hadood ordinance, and only had an issue when changes were sought. They admitted at that point that there were issues with the hadood ordinance as it was, and their excuse for opposing the changes was that it will not ake real changes. Aray bhai, if you are the banner waving book banging islamic system advocates, where was that passion when you knew that there were issues with the hadood ordinace and you never addressed it.
I have zero issue with a shariah based govt system. But it is not going to come from this set of halwa khor jokers in MMA. They can hardly get beyond ripping posters and breaking cds to talk about the greater impact and how they plan to address issues like taxation, health care, education in a shariah compliant way, and its not just an issue of having ideas, but full blown impact assessment. i.e. if they dont want ale doctors to treat female patients or male teachers to teadch female students, then lets look at projections of female students and availability of female teachers, same goes for doctors. But they have never done that.
And, I am not abandoning shariah, yet I am not going to accept a 'shariah' concept that is flawed, that is not agreed upon by people, that has holes in it, that is based on wild assumptions and interpretations of the type of halwa khor mullahs that sit in our political parties now.
Since I am not dying to see shariah system in Pakistan. I guess then the onus is on the people who want the shariah system to rise to the challenge.
Re: Pak girls want music shops to close down
sorry man, the whole issue here is that people advocating shariah not only do not agree among themselves but they have not really put forward any coherent solutions for
Well, not to sound snide, but who's Shariah? Some proposals are quite complex and sophisticated. Some even argue that the current constitution is good enough...which secularists strongly disagree with.
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I have zero issue with a shariah based govt system. But it is not going to come from this set of halwa khor jokers in MMA.
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No doubt...indeed, I think the current constitution is a very good launching pad...but the point is, true secularists think it is fatally flawed in that it's not....well...secular.
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And, I am not abandoning shariah, yet I am not going to accept a 'shariah' concept that is flawed, that is not agreed upon by people, that has holes in it, that is based on wild assumptions and interpretations of the type of halwa khor mullahs that sit in our political parties now.
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I don't disagree....but then, a secular 'solution' is no stop gap...it is an ideology violently opposed to having religion in government...not until a coherent polity can emerge...but for all times.
Re: Pak girls want music shops to close down
The stupidity of this thread is that no one knows that it was not video shop or music shop they wanted to close but they wanted to close those due to the ongoing complaints against the 'blue movies' business going behind the scenes. Unless someone in this thread sanctions such business, I for one agree with the action as Police failed to implement the Law after several attempts done by people of the area.
Re: Pak girls want music shops to close down
The stupidity of this thread is that no one knows that it was not video shop or music shop they wanted to close but they wanted to close those due to the ongoing complaints against the 'blue movies' business going behind the scenes. Unless someone in this thread sanctions such business, I for one agree with the action as Police failed to implement the Law after several attempts done by people of the area.
People don't wanna hear truth man.....and if they hear the truth then they won't be believing in it.
Re: Pak girls want music shops to close down
in ladkiyon main se ek apun sab logo ki bhabhi banegi.
knockout_artist is willing to marry one of them.