Pak Afghan Border clashes

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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The difference between Pakistani and Afghan governments!

On the Pakistani side our tribals dont have constitutional rights, where as on Afghan side they are under Afghan constitution. On our side we have FCR and the areas are ruled by political agents and on their side there are provinces by the name of Kunar, Nuristan, Paktiya, Paktika etc having their own governments. The Afghans seem to be willing to resolve the issue diplomatically where as we believe that the issue can be resolved by force only. Karzai has visited their Eastern provinces (especially after some unfortunate incients), have our (diplomatically elected) Prime minister or President ever find the time to visit FATA? The reaction of Afghan government has been different to the deaths of civilians as compared to Pakistanis (dont care attitude). Pakistani sovereignty has been violated time and again by the militants as well as NATO forces and our reaction has been feeble, where as they are threatening to go to UN if (according to them ) Pakistan does not stop missile attacks in Eastern Afghanistan.

Border tensions: Kabul threatens to move UN – The Express Tribune

**ISLAMABAD / KABUL: Amidst simmering tensions over cross-border attacks by Taliban insurgents and retaliatory action from Pakistani security forces, Kabul warned on Sunday that it would move the United Nations if the matter was not resolved diplomatically.

**This came as Kabul’s top diplomat in Islamabad called for an ‘urgent huddle’ of security officials and experts from both countries to defuse the situation which can bedevil their bilateral diplomatic relations.

“Pakistan should respect its neighbours and immediately stop missile attacks,” Faramarz Tamana, the deputy spokesperson for the Afghan foreign ministry, told a news conference in Kabul.

“The ministry condemns missile attacks from the neighbouring country into the Afghan province,” *Pojhwok Afghan News *quoted Tamana as saying. Afghan Ambassador in Islamabad Omar Daudzai has taken up the matter with Pakistani Foreign Minister Hina Rabbani Khar, he added.

Mortar and artillery fire by Pakistani security forces into border areas of Kunar increased after 17 Pakistani soldiers were killed by marauding militants from the banned Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan, who have found safe havens in eastern Afghanistan after fleeing military operations.

**Blame game
**
Pakistani officials say that fugitive TTP militants, led by their senior cadres Maulvi Fazlullah and Maulvi Faqir Muhammad are using Kunar and Nuristan as a springboard for launching attacks on Pakistani security forces – a claim recently condoned by the TTP.

Following the June 24 deadly attack on Pakistani security forces by TTP militants in Upper Dir, Maulvi Fazlullah’s spokesperson Sirajuddin Ahmed had said that Afghan militants were aiding them in cross-border attacks.

Afghan officials, on the other hand, accuse Pakistani security forces of targeting Afghan civilians in the two provinces with mortar and artillery shelling.

Ambassador Daudzai suggested that security officials and technical experts from the two countries should sit together ‘as soon as possible’ to resolve the issue.

“Afghan President Hamid Karzai will also discuss border tensions with Prime Minister Raja Pervaiz Ashraf when the latter visits Kabul on July 16-17,” Daudzai told The Express Tribune.

The Pakistani premier was earlier scheduled to visit Kabul on July 9, but the trip was postponed by a week, official sources said. “Pakistani and Afghani leaders will exchange views on the border tensions and I hope they will resolve the matter amicably,” Daudzai said.

**Afghan refugees
**
The two leaders are also expected to discuss the thorny issue of repatriation of Afghan refugees from Pakistan, according to Daudzai. Pakistan had given illegal Afghan immigrants, mostly living in Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa, until June 30 to return home voluntarily.

“Pakistan, as a neighbor, should not set deadlines. The Afghan government wants the repatriation to take place with honour and dignity,” said the ambassador.

(With additional input from News Desk)
Published in The Express Tribune, July 2[SUP]nd[/SUP], 2012.

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rubbish!! plain hypocrisy on their part, they are not willing to admit that they have many times fired rockets and gave a free hand to taliban in eastern provinces, who cross over and attack our soldiers, but they are quick to blame Pakistan, when we react in our defence.

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our new PM is on a visit to Kabul in few days, it would be sucha waste of money, wont bring any change!

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Instead of Kabul the PM should visit FATA (for a change) and see what changes need to be done in the constitution to include them fully under our constitution and remove some of the root causes for the issue at hand.

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**ISLAMABAD: ** **Alarmed by increasing frequency of cross-border attacks from Afghanistan-based Taliban insurgents, Pakistan’s military is believed to have decided to send reinforcements to Swat after radical cleric Maulvi Fazlullah and his loyalists threatened to recapture the valley they ruled for two years before they were routed by the military in 2009.

“Threats from across the border are not something we can ignore … we will have to reinforce our troops to keep them away from Swat,” a senior security official told The Express Tribune on Friday. He did not want to be named because of the sensitivity of the issue.

The threat from the militia followed the release of a video by its associates of what they claimed were the heads of 17 Pakistani soldiers along with their identification cards.
Maulvi Fazlullah has slowly regrouped his militia by securing support from Afghan militants in an area where groups form loose alliances against the US, Afghanistan and Pakistan.
“He is extremely dangerous,” said a Pakistani security official. “Fazlullah has 150 men, rocket-propelled grenades and light machine guns. You only need a small number of men to carry out effective operations. This is a big number,” he told Reuters.

Experts, however, believe it will be impossible for the group to regain Swat from Pakistani military, which currently controls the most vital part of the valley.

Cross-border attacks: Military may send reinforcements to Swat – The Express Tribune

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Instead of threatning Pakistan, US/Afghan need to use drone strikes in eastern province, because that's where real terrorists are hiding.

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Obviously nobody has worked with the Afghan government or this thread wouldn't exist. Having worked with them every day for more than 2 years now Ali your assessment is bull****.

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^ it would be good if you could reply to the opening post point wise that would be great.

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Sure. Well firstly Karzai has never visited Kunar, Nuristan, Laghman or Wardak. These areas have heavy taliban presence and he would get killed as soon as he landed. Those are all in the Eastern Region. Nuristan and Kunar have been no go for 3 years now for ISAF and for the Government.

Secondly most Government officials play a double game. They play lip service to no casualties yet they authorize all air strikes. They always have. In the case where 6 kids were killed the Afghan National Army called in the Air support. It wasn't ISAF alone.

The government is all hot air. They don't have the ability to get anything done themselves. Put it this way they want a new toliet they don't do the work themselves. They ask ISAF to make their toliets for them, and then pocket the money. Lastly the current government will not last a single day beyond December 31 2014.

In the districts there is no government. Their government officials do not work, live or even show up to their jobs. They only stay in the provincial capital. Its like all the guys who work in SWAT spending every day of every month for a full year sitting in Peshawar and doing nothing. That is the case of the Afghan government in 90% of the provinces.

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^ Bro I agree with what ever you have written, and I am aware that the afghans (and NATO) don’t have any writ in Eastern Afghanistan. Having writ is one thing, but still don’t you agree that all the eastern provinces are proper provinces having their governors and under the afghan constitution. On the other side we know what the situation is like on our side.

We need to also consider the fact that we think of afghan government as a puppet government and Pakistan as independent. Keeping that in mind karzai visited kunar after a deadly air strike which killed civilians, he met the families of Kandahar (in his palace) after civilians were killed, he cancelled his UK tripwhen Shias were killed by a suicide bomber or cut short his China trip after Logar massacre. As far as Pakistan is concerned a jirga was targeted killing 40 people, OBL operation happened (the next week president’s trip for Russia was planned which went ahead on time), and Salala happened. Leave all this aside can any one tell me how many times the president and prime minister of Pakistan have visited FATA during the past four and a half years?

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Allegedly 60 Afghan National Army personnel enter Upper Dir fought with tribals, killed 2 and left. Is there no presence of Pakistan army there?

Afghanistan, Pakistan clash over border violence | DAWN.COM

Afghanistan, Pakistan clash over border violence

http://dawncompk.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/mohmandhillsafp6701.jpg

Pakistani security forces stationed at Pak-Afghan border.—AFP Photo

**PESHAWAR: Pakistani officials accused up to 60 Afghan soldiers on Monday of crossing into Pakistani territory and sparking clashes that killed two tribesmen.
**
It was the latest in a series of escalating cross-border attacks reported in Afghanistan and Pakistan that are inflaming tensions along the porous border as Nato prepares to end its combat mission against the Taliban in 2014.

Both countries blame each other for harbouring Taliban fighters active on both sides of their 2,400 kilometre (1,500 mile) border, fanning distrust between Kabul and Islamabad, and complicating a peace process in Afghanistan.

Kabul threatened to report Islamabad to the UN Security Council over what it alleges is the shelling of villages, while Islamabad said it would protest formally to Kabul against the latest incursion.

“If our bilateral discussion regarding this issue brings no result, we will refer this issue to the United Nations Security Council,” Afghan foreign ministry spokesman Faramarz Tamana told AFP.

**In Pakistan’s semi-autonomous tribal belt, security officials said two tribesmen were killed in Upper Kurram district in clashes with 60 Afghan army soldiers. Another tribesman was also wounded “after they traded fire with Afghan army soldiers on seeing them inside Pakistani territory,” a senior official told AFP on condition of anonymity.

The clashes lasted for more than 90 minutes after which security forces were sent to the area on the Afghan border, he said.
**
Local residents said the Afghans were pursuing attackers fleeing Shehar-e-Nau village in Paktia province.

Afghan defence officials denied the alleged incursion.

“We are not aware of such an operation by ANA (Afghan National Army) in that area,” Daulat Wazir spokesman for the Ministry of Defence said.

Colonel Ahmad Jan, spokesman for army corps 203 in southeastern Afghanistan said: “It is not true, our forces have not entered Pakistan. We have not had any operations near the border recently.”A spokesman for Afghanistan’s National Directorate of Security intelligence agency said cross-border fire had killed four people, including a woman and a child, and wounded six others, in the last week.

Afghans and Americans blame Pakistan for not doing more to eliminate havens on its soil, which are used as launch pads for attacks across the border.
Last month, the US commander of Nato in Afghanistan blamed the Pakistan-based Haqqani network for a siege on a lakeside hotel in Kabul that killed 18 people.

US Defense Secretary Leon Panetta also warned last month that Washington was running out of patience with Pakistan over militant havens.

**But in Pakistan, border attacks have raised fresh concerns that Pakistani Taliban, who fled a 2009 army offensive, have regrouped and again pose a threat. Officials said dozens of militants based in Afghanistan on Sunday attacked a checkpost in Upper Dir, a district in the government-controlled part of Pakistan, for the second time in eight days.

They said six militants were killed after crossing into Sabir Killey village in the Soni Darr area of Upper Dir. One official told AFP the “firefight continued late into the night”.
**
**Another official said there were reports “hundreds of militants” were gathering in Afghanistan’s eastern province of Kunar.

“Authorities have alerted local lashkars (tribal militia) amid fears of a bigger clash,” he told AFP on condition of anonymity.
**
Intelligence officials say the attackers are loyalists of Pakistani cleric Maulana Fazlullah, who fled into Afghanistan when the army recaptured the Swat valley after a two-year Taliban insurgency ended in 2009.

Swat neighbours Upper Dir, which is a key transit route between Afghanistan and Pakistan.

The valley was once a popular tourism destination and unlike the semi-autonomous tribal belt on the Afghan border, lies just 100 kilometres (60 miles) from the capital Islamabad.

The Taliban released a video showing severed heads of 17 Pakistani soldiers who they said were killed in a similar cross-border attack on a check post in Soni Darr on June 24.

A senior official confirmed that all 17 in the video were security personnel.

Islamabad lodged a strong protest with Kabul over the June 24 attack.

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first taliban cross over and attack our checkposts and now afghan army is deliberately coming into our territory and killing people, where was our army? this incident took place in upper kurram which connects with Afghanistan tribal areas. and last I checked our army is present in upper Khurram.

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Second attack in just 8 days, Pak army need to take a tougher stance and hit them hard. this is unacceptable.**

PESHAWAR: Security officials on Monday said dozens of militants infiltrated the Afghan border to attack a checkpost in a northwestern district for the second time in eight days.
Six militants from Afghanistan killed in Upper Dir: Officials – The Express Tribune

**

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Why cant we mine/fence the area & regulate flow of people on either direction?

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The new updated article from Dawn states: Afghan troops intrude into Kurram, kill two villagers | DAWN.COM

Basically people attacked a ANA check post and they followed them in to Pakistan. Regardless you know what the good news out of all of this is? That the Pakistanis fought with the ANA. That the tribes on our side of the border are loyal to Pakistan. That they coordinate and collaborate with the Pakistani Military and are prepared to defend themselves from the guys across the border.

This is a positive development and the true side of the average Pashtun in FATA considering how many people actively wish to describe the people in FATA do not consider themselves as Pakistanis.

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[QUOTE]
Pakistani officials say that fugitive TTP militants, led by their senior cadres Maulvi Fazlullah and Maulvi Faqir Muhammad are using Kunar and Nuristan as a springboard for launching attacks on Pakistani security forces – a claim recently condoned by the TTP.

[/QUOTE]

While the Fazlullah factor cannot be ruled out, including its collaboration with local militants, Pakistan should also look deep into the underlying idea of paying Pakistan in the same coin when it comes to cross-border militancy. Kabul has been accusing Pakistan of cross-border infiltration for a long time, something that is globally accepted as a fact. It weakens our position and we cannot make much hue and cry over an issue we purportedly commit ourselves. Since cross-border raids have almost become regular, Pak army should look into it and try to be offensive to meet the challenge instead of waiting at home for the attackers.

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Do you have a plan to make it work? Mining has a better potential to thwart unfriendlies, but I don't know if I could morally support them considering the human cost of them.

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UN does not permit mining grounds.

But who cares for the UN? :D

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Thank you. If the fact that Pakhtun tribes have fought in every war for Pakistan was not enough, we continue to maintain the territorial integrity of Pakistan.

I have always called for the empowerment of the tribes: Give the Wazirs, Afridis, Mohmands the necessary firepower and its all over…of course we know that won’t happen because of the bigger game that Islamabad is playing. The word cannon fodder comes to mind.

Don’t get me wrong, I am not bitter, still proud to be Pakistani.

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^ welcome back bro, we do need a pakhtun voice in the forum as its missing and what ever is happening these days concern them and affect them the most.