Our Saudi Vendetta!?!?!

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
101

Re: Our Saudi Vendetta!?!?!

If the militant in Kashmir are committing the same atrocities against Kashmiris, that those in Pakistan are committing, then its about time we stopped supporting them. And, while you bring it up, have you ever read the sort of human rights violations that have occured in Kashmir? Your comparing India, which is forcefully occupying Kashmiri land, committing all sorts of crimes on these people, to Pakistan? What crime have Pakistanis committed that we should warrant such attention from the Saudis? Have we occupied anyone else? Are we committing atrocities akin to those perpetrated on the Kashmirs? So why are the Saudis funding terrorists in Paksitan?

As far as the Ahmadis are concerned. They have their relgion and you have yours. You are convinced that you are right, and they are convinced that they are right. So for the sake of peace, why dont you just live and let live instead of taking it upon yourself to decide who is a proper Muslim and who isnt. You apparently think most of Pakistan are committing some sort of Fitna, but why should anyone care what your oppinion is. Your interpretation is biased by the fact that your a mortal just like the rest of us, including the Ahmadis.

The sort of Islam we have practiced in Pakistan for centuries is the kind that believes in co existence. What you espouse is a hard nosed, literalistic and exclusionary form of Islam that is alien to Pakistan. Your ideology is without compromise, and unyielding. Thats not Islam.

102

Re: Our Saudi Vendetta!?!?!

A number of posters have showed you evidence for why we she should be concerned about the SAUDIS. You dont want to read any of the arguments made, and you ignore all outside articles and references. So who is divorced from reality here?

103

Re: Our Saudi Vendetta!?!?!

We GAVE you substance. You ignored it!

The PAKISTAN govt doesnt take it up with the SAUDIS because the SAUDIS have to much political influence in Pakistan!

Why is this so hard for you to understand! How much more does one have to simplify this for you to understand that these SAUDIS do fund extremist madrassas! And they do fund terrorist groups!

104

Re: Our Saudi Vendetta!?!?!

Saudi aid to Pakistan has not been for free. In return Saudis have exported their fanatic brand of Islam all across Pakistan. And Pakistan's present Talibanic khariji problem is the result of this radicalization through Saudi money.
Saudis have destroyed future of Pakistan's young generation.

Saudis have proven a bigger enemy of Pakistan than even India.

105

Re: Our Saudi Vendetta!?!?!

You have got to be f*cking kidding me. There really is no point arguing with you.

I wasn't talking about what atrocities are being committed on Kashmiris, I was just giving you an example of where Pakistan is doing the same regardless of reasons or motive. As much as you blame Saudis for terrorism in Pakistan, the fact is that the Taliban is a monster we helped create and we are reaping what we sowed. The war on terrorism was brought to Pakistani soil by Musharraf. Those facts will never change, no matter how much you try to pin this on the Saudis.

As for Ahmadis, I believe in their right for peaceful coexistence. What I don't appreciate is you telling me that I have no right to point them out as Non-Muslim, when the whole Muslim world regardless of sect unanimously agrees that they are a deviant branch. As far as the sort of Islam being practiced in Pakistan is concerned, I have my opinion and you have yours, let's just leave it at that.

106

Re: Our Saudi Vendetta!?!?!

The MOTIVE is the issue here my friend. When a people are being oppressed, then its incumbent on all justice minded people, especially Muslims to stand up for them. Hence the justification for Kashmir.

What the SAUDIS are doing is not defending anyone or helping anyone. What they are doing is suporting terrorist organizations that end up bombing and killing innocent people.

And Khoji is right, by promoting thier ideology through madrassas they fund, they really are destroying the lives of many of Pakistan poor.

As for Ahmadis, ofcourse you have right to call anyone anything you like. You can call a tree a dog, or bee a fly, but its all irrelevant. The bottom line is that you can call them Non Muslims, they can call you the same thing. In the end, who is or isnt a Muslim is in the hand of God to decide. For you to assume you know the mind of God is also Fitna.

And all the sects may unanimously believe something, but that doent necesarilly make it so. There are atleast 5 BILLION people who dont believe in Islam. Does that mean Islam is not true? No, it just means that 5 Billion people arent Muslim. The only one that can prove Muslims right is God himself.

I know you dont agree with me. But when your ideolgy is Wahabism, you only look at the world through that limited perspective.

107

Re: Our Saudi Vendetta!?!?!

I knew that truth bites, but I did not know that it causes people to throw expletives as well.

It's unfortunate that some Pakistanis would sacrifice the future of their generations only to protect the anti-Pakistan activities of hypocrite Saudi dictator. "Khadim e harmain"? More like Khaain e harmain.

108

Re: Our Saudi Vendetta!?!?!

^khadim e Umreekain

109

Re: Our Saudi Vendetta!?!?!

"The MOTIVE is the issue here my friend. When a people are being oppressed, then its incumbent on all justice minded people, especially Muslims to stand up for them. Hence the justification for Kashmir"

When progressives justify militancy, all hope is lost. Med, I sincerely hope this viewpoint changes over time. (Yes, I understand there are injustices in that area). Not here to discuss Kashmir issue at length. But it saddens me to hear this perspective. Violence is never the answer. Diplomacy, election of honest politicians, rooting out corruption - these may take time. But they are the answer. Taking a timeout from this forum.

God be with all of you.

110

Re: Our Saudi Vendetta!?!?!

Havent got anything of substance from you on the matter till now excpet for refernce from Vali Nasr and i told you he is a biased anti-sunni propagandist who wants shia minorities to clash with sunnis.
Show me the evidence of financing. From what i have learned the major sources of finance for TTP are poppy trade, cigarrette smuggling, illegal deforestation and kidnapping with Karachi as one of major sources.
More than billion dollars flow in from Saudi to Pakistan every year in form of FE sent by Pakistani expats, i wont be surprised if a small fraction of it ends up with Talibs.

111

Re: Our Saudi Vendetta!?!?!

[mod] Guys stick to the topic & no personal attacks. [/mod]

112

Re: Our Saudi Vendetta!?!?!

Actually I agreed with you and you still ranted like a mad man at me. More importantly you ignored the fact that I agreed with you and went on with your vendetta.

113

Re: Our Saudi Vendetta!?!?!

Dude. Its a shame that we can no longer distinguish between movements that aim to liberate people, from miltancy meant to imprison them.

Ultimately it depends on which side of the issue your on. For Americans the Revolution was their momnet of freedom, for the British it was victory for Rebels.

Just decade or so ago, the same people fighting America in Afghanistan were freedom fighters, and now look at them

Generally I assume that anywhere where people are oppressed and are asking for freedom, those people have a right to fight for it. The Kashmiris are oppressed, and they are asking for freedom from India. To that end I support them, and I support those who support those cause.

If however, those proporting to defend the Kashmiri people become their enemy, then we no longer owe them any support. Like I said, I dont supoprt terrorists, I support the will of the people.

Elections and peaceful negotiations might work, but recall that the rebellion against India started in part because Indias direct interference in local Kashmiri politics. And perhaps the people shouldnt be violent, but considering Indian intransigence, can you blame them?

And lets be honest. Violence is t be avoided ofcourse, but there is a time for talk and time to fight. Not all enemies acquiesce to soft words. Through out history we have seen, that when the cause is just, there no other option. Sadly, there is truth in the adage, "Speak softly, but carry a big stick."

114

Re: Our Saudi Vendetta!?!?!

Ok. This ffom Wiki Leaks.

“Saudi Arabia remains a critical financial support base for al Qaeda, the Taliban, LeT (Lashkar-e-Taiba), and other terrorist groups, including Hamas, which probably raise millions of dollars annually from Saudi sources, often during Hajj and Ramazan,” the cable said.
“Riyadh has taken only limited action” to interrupt the flow of money to Taliban and LeT-associated groups which have launched attacks in Afghanistan, Pakistan and India.

“Donors in Saudi Arabia constitute the most significant source of funding to Sunni terrorist groups worldwide,” said the document, an assessment from US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton dated December 30, 2009.

Now no one is saying that the Saudi govt is directly involved, but member of the royal family are suspected.
The problem is one of complacency.
Vali Naser may not suite you taste, but that doesnt mean he is lying . We know for a fact that large number of these madrassas get foreign funding, which is completely under the radar. And its not a secret that much of this funding comes from Wahabi sources. Now you can deny this, but this FACT.

Now I dont know what more to give you here. The critcsm is based on FACTS, and it goes well beyond just their racism.

115

Re: Our Saudi Vendetta!?!?!

You agreed that they are racist. Wonderful. But thats not the point of this thread. The point of the thread is to establish the fact that those who critisize the SAudis dont do so out of some bizzare vendetta, but because the Saudis deserve that criticsm.
I continued with you because you fail to grasp this point. Infact, you even repeated the accusation in this post.. So obviously, your not getting it.

116

Re: Our Saudi Vendetta!?!?!

A quick google search shows this, for example.

From 2009:

WASHINGTON — The United States has determined that Saudi Arabia continues to be the leading source of funding to Al Qaida and is also the top financial backer of Taliban.
A report the Government Accountability Office said the Saudi government did not appear to be involved in the funding, but that Saudi funds to both Al Qaida and Taliban has helped finance the war against NATO in Afghanistan.
GAO said Saudis were the chief source of funding to Taliban, Middle East Newsline reported. The report said couriers were transporting cash from Saudi Arabia and other Gulf Cooperation Council states to Afghanistan and Pakistan for Taliban.

“They are a top source of funding for Al Qaida and associated terror groups, such as the Taliban,” GAO said on Sept. 29.

GAO said Riyad has failed to stop the flow of funds from individuals and charities to Al Qaida and Taliban.

Another from 2010:

Terror link alleged as Saudi millions flow into Afghanistan war zone

Millions of dollars of Saudi Arabian money have flowed into Afghanistan over the past four years, the country’s intelligence officials say, with the sponsorship of terrorism its most likely use.

…

the influx of Saudi money is on the increase. The £920 million, or five billion Saudi riyals, monitored by FinTraca since 2006 has accelerated, peaking this year. Most of it entered Afghanistan through the Pakistani tribal area, in particular North Waziristan, which is infamous as al-Qaeda’s heartland.

WASHINGTON — Saudi Arabia remains the world’s leading source of money for Al Qaeda and other extremist networks and has failed to take key steps requested by U.S. officials to stem the flow, the Bush administration’s top financial counter-terrorism official said Tuesday.

Stuart A. Levey, a Treasury undersecretary, told a Senate committee that the Saudi government had not taken important steps to go after those who finance terrorist organizations or to prevent wealthy donors from bankrolling extremism through charitable contributions, sometimes unwittingly.

117

Re: Our Saudi Vendetta!?!?!

Your example is irrelevant to the topic then.

My point stands.

118

Re: Our Saudi Vendetta!?!?!

Med, I sincerely hope the younger generation in both countries start with a different approach. Granted there are injustices. Question is, what is the solution? I respectfully submit that countering one wrong with another wrong probably is not the best.

Especially for those who are far away from the situation, it is best to weigh one's words and not make matters worse. And there is additional responsibility on educated people to measure their words even more carefully. Each word should be chosen with the objective of promoting peace, and coming to agreements by totally peaceful means.

Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan, Gandhi, Martin Luther King all preached and practised non-violence. Jesus Christ preached to show the other cheek. All religions, at their core, practise and preach non-violence.

Personally, I abhor violence at all levels. As we move forward in the 21st century, let both nations lay down arms, talk to each other, and solve problems peacefully.

Having had the opportunity to live abroad for a bulk of my life, the differences between the two great South Asian countries seem very petty to me. Islam's meaning, someone told me is "religion of peace". I think same applies to other religions. Let all of us live up to what our religions teach us at the core - to be peaceful.

I will get off my soapbox! Peace.

119

Re: Our Saudi Vendetta!?!?!

The cable details in the link actually show that Saudi secret agency co-operating with americans.

My question, is Pakistani government identifying any sources of funding to Pakistani Taliban from KSA and Saudis showing complacency or ignoring it? If thats teh case, there is justification of criticising KSA. How much is britain doing in weeding out terror activities of MQM in Pakistan?

120

Re: Our Saudi Vendetta!?!?!

Peace for peace sake.

Im all for it.

And yes, not much separates us from Indians. But its not for me to judge the merit of Kashmiri claims. Our similarity obviously doesn't extend to the minds of Kashmiris who have only seen India through the barrel of a gun.

And if accounts of human right violations are to be believed, they have every right to see Indians as their oppressors, and not as their kin.

I hope sanity pervails and a peacful route can be found, but lets not undermine the legitimate rights of Kashmiris.