Great leaders like Jinnah, Liaqat Ali khan etc. were fairly progressive Muslims. I believe their dream was to creat progressive state for the Muslims of India. I was browsing through Truman presidential library and found the archives of Liaqat Ali Khan and Begum Rana Liaqat Ali khan pics from their visit to States in 1950. They appeared to be more progressive and enlightend then our leaders of today. Our country is becoming more and more conservative and less tolarent. Anyone would like to elaborate on the reason for these changes in Pakistan?
Re: Our founding fathers were progressive!
National character is not static. It doesn't matter what Pakistan's founders wanted, what matters instead is what the people today want.
Re: Our founding fathers were progressive!
not necessarily. people in US wanted slavery to continue back in the day, it was the progressive leadership that took steps ..many against public will to do what was right.
Re: Our founding fathers were progressive!
Are you telling me that our people are becoming more and more rigid? If so why? 
Re: Our founding fathers were progressive!
polarization...plus the after effects of the islamization by zia sahab. Flow of saudi influenced thought into madrissas funded by them etc etc.
its very evident.
Re: Our founding fathers were progressive!
not necessarily. people in US wanted slavery to continue back in the day, it was the progressive leadership that took steps ..many against public will to do what was right.
That's not relevant - USA's founding fathers allowed slavery to be legitimate in the constitution they wrote.
It was only later that the USA drifted away from their vision of a slave-permitting country (which to be fair, was common to all nations in the world at the time).
Just because the USA's founding fathers permitted slavery doesn't mean that the USA should have allowed it forever; simialrly, just because Pakistan's founding fathers may have had a particular set of attitudes doesn't mean that Pakistan should be bound to those forever.
Re: Our founding fathers were progressive!
That's not relevant - USA's founding fathers allowed slavery to be legitimate in the constitution they wrote.
It was only later that the USA drifted away from their vision of a slave-permitting country (which to be fair, was common to all nations in the world at the time).
Just because the USA's founding fathers permitted slavery doesn't mean that the USA should have allowed it forever; simialrly, just because Pakistan's founding fathers may have had a particular set of attitudes doesn't mean that Pakistan should be bound to those forever.
of course its relevant, the point is that the progressive govt of that time took steps that were widely unpopular but because the leadership felt that they were the right steps. So we cant say that hey whatever people want is what is the right thing to do.
now to answer your point from this last post
Pakistan should not be bound to a particular sets of attitudes forever, but when there are certain basis of the country...read Mr. Jinnah's speeches, they need to be baked in the constitution, and the only way to change that is by ammendments.
US constitution has stood the test of time, and the basic essence of the founding father's vision is still there. If we look at Mr. Jinnah's speeches, writings and all, there is no doubt what his vision was.
Re: Our founding fathers were progressive!
I think the Pakistan constitution has hardly been in effect for half of Pakistans history. Another thing that I see is that attitudes of the opposition and those in power. Progress whether initiated by the people or government only moves forward when it is allowed to. The political scenario in Pakistan is akin to kids playing marbles. Sometimes the loosing kid pee's into the marble holes. What does that mean, well if I can't win then your not playing either. If we can change this mentality a lot of progress can be made.
Re: Our founding fathers were progressive!
well which constitution are we talking about, we did not have one for ages, and then all the hoopla on the ones we did have.
Re: Our founding fathers were progressive!
well which constitution are we talking about, we did not have one for ages, and then all the hoopla on the ones we did have.
Well we've had one every now and then, just not officially agreed upon I think until 1973. Then ofcourse it has had all the amendments. So yeah Pakistan has been a constitutionally unconsitutional state perhaps ... Sheesh listen to me.
The way I see things in Pakistan, the constitution doesn't mean squat. People there first have learn to live by the rules they choose to write before any constitution can be effective. The amendments in the constitution have mostly been to fit the desires or personality of the one in power. The amendments done to the constitution in Nawaz sharifs tenure are a classic example of this, when the president was stripped of most powers. So our constitution is rarely used to enforce the law or rules in the country but used to bend it so that those in power don't get trampled by it.
But anyway, the thread is why we don't make progress even though some of our past and present leaders have had visions of grandeur.
Re: Our founding fathers were progressive!
National character is not static. It doesn't matter what Pakistan's founders wanted, what matters instead is what the people today want.
Amen...and that's the essence of free will and democracy...why be held hostage to the frailties and indiscretion of the past...the will and the enfranchisement of the people Pakistan is more sacred then the debauchery of the acquiescent half-cocked anglophiles of the past...
Vision of our Founding Father
Excerpt from the Presidential Address delivered by the Quaid-i-Azam at Lahore on March 22-23, 1940
"It is extremely difficult to appreciate why our Hindu friends fail to understand the real nature of Islam and Hinduism. They are not religious in the strict sense of the word, but are, in fact, different and distinct social orders; and it is only a dream that the Hindus and Muslims can ever evolve a common nationality. This misconception of one Indian Nation has troubles and will lead India to destruction if we fail to revise our notions in time. The Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs, literatures. They neither intermarry nor interdine together and, indeed, they belong to two different civilizations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions. Their aspect on life are different. It is quite clear that Hindus and Mussalmans derive their inspiration from different sources of history. They have different epics, different heroes, and different episodes. Very often the hero of one is a foe of the other and, likewise, their victories and defeats overlap. To yoke together two such nations under a single state, one as a numerical minority and the other as a majority, must lead to growing discontent and final destruction of any fabric that may be so built for the government of such a state.”
Paksitan Visions,
An International Journal of Pakistan Affair** (Quaid-i-Azam Number),
Vol. II, No. 1 & 2 January-july 2001, Lahore*
Re: Vision of our Founding Father
Speech to Karachi Bar association on January 1948 (published in Dawn on January 26, 1948):
**
"Why this feeling of nervousness that the future constitution of Pakistan is going to be in conflict with Shariat Laws? Islamic principles today are as applicable to life as they were 1300 years ago.
Islam and its idealism have taught democracy. Islam has taught equality, justice and fairplay to everyone. What reason is there for anyone to fear democracy, equality, freedom on the highest standard of integrity and on the basis of fairplay and justice for all. Let us make it (Shariat) the future constitution of Pakistan."
Replying to a question whether Pakistan would be a secular or theocratic state? the Quaid rebuked: **"You are asking me a question that is absurd. What I have already said is like throwing water on a duck's back. When you talk of democracy, I am afraid you have not studied Islam. We learned democracy 13 centuries ago."
Re: Vision of our Founding Father
During his vista to Dhaka he warned Pakistanis “Have you forgotten the lesson that was taught to us 1300 years ago.. so what is the use of saying ˜we are Bengali or Sindhis, or Pathans or Punjabis? No, we are all Muslims. You belong to a nation; you have carved out a territory, vast territory; it is yours; it does not belong to a Punjabi or a Sindhi, or a Pathan or a Bengali, it is yours..
Re: Vision of our Founding Father
In his June 18, 1945, message to the Frontier Muslim Students Federation, he had talked of “the Muslim ideology which”, he said, “has to be preserved, which has come to us as precious gift and treasure and which, we hope, others will share”.
In his broadcast to the United States in February 1948, he was sure that the Pakistan constitution would be of “a democratic type, embodying the essential principles of Islam”. At the same time, he reaffirmed unequivocally that “Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state ... to be ruled by priests with a divine mission”.
Re: Our founding fathers were progressive!
I agree. We are basically a lawless society and it is mostly because the consitution is there but nobody to enforce it. No system of check and balances. We have to learn to be civil before we can talk about progression. 
Re: Vision of our Founding Father
“WE HAVE GOT THE GREATEST MESSAGE IN THE **QURAN **FOR OUR GUIDANCE AND ENLIGHTENMENT.”
“**THE PROPHET OF ISLAM (PBUH)** WAS A GREAT TEACHER, A GREAT REFORMER, A GREAT LAW-GIVER, A GREAT STATESMAN, AND A GREAT RULER.”
“OUR SALVATION LIES IN FOLLOWING THE GOLDEN RULES OF CONDUCT SET FOR US BY OUR GREAT LAW-GIVER,** THE PROPHET OF ISLAM (PBUH)**.”
“WE MUST WORK OUR DESTINY IN OUR OWN WAY AND PRESENT TO THE WORLD AN ECONOMIC SYSTEM BASED ON TRUE ISLAMIC CONCEPT OF EQUALITY OF MANHOOD AND SOCIAL JUSTICE.”
“IT IS THE **GREAT BOOK QURAN THAT IS THE SHEET ANCHOR OF MUSLIM INDIA**. I AM SURE THAT, AS WE GO ON AND ON, THERE WILL BE MORE AND MORE OF ONENESS – ONE GOD, ONE BOOK, ONE QIBLA, ONE PROPHET, ONE NATION.”
"What is it that keeps the Muslims united as one man, and what is the bedrock and sheet-anchor of the community? It is Islam. It is the Great Book, Quran, that is the sheet-anchor of Muslim-India. I am sure that as we go on and on there will be more and more of oneness – one God, one Book, one Prophet and one Nation.”
[RIGHT]**26th December, 1943
**“Islam”, he said, “does not recognise any kind of distinction of caste, and the Prophet [PBUH] was able to level down all castes and create national unity among Arabs. Our bedrock and sheetanchor is Islam. There is no question even of Shias and Sunnis. We are one and we must move as one nation, and then alone we shall be able to retain Pakistan.”
[/RIGHT]
Re: Our founding fathers were progressive!
But those hallf cocked anglophiles of the past gave you a country to call your own. 
Mr. Zia gave you nothing but exploitation of the masses in the name of Islam
Re: Our founding fathers were progressive!
of course its relevant, the point is that the progressive govt of that time took steps that were widely unpopular but because the leadership felt that they were the right steps. So we cant say that hey whatever people want is what is the right thing to do.
now to answer your point from this last post
Pakistan should not be bound to a particular sets of attitudes forever, but when there are certain basis of the country...read Mr. Jinnah's speeches, they need to be baked in the constitution, and the only way to change that is by ammendments.
US constitution has stood the test of time, and the basic essence of the founding father's vision is still there. If we look at Mr. Jinnah's speeches, writings and all, there is no doubt what his vision was.
Good points Mr. Fraudia. I do agree with you here with most of the stuff. I am sorry. I am a new mom and my baby and other responsiblities sometimes takes my time. I do want this dicussion to continue. I have always wondered what went wrong with us. This will help me a lot to educate myself.
Re: Our founding fathers were progressive!
No they didn’t…the British gave us the country…and if anything these half-cocked anglophiles were the biggest scumbags cause they pulled the biggest scam job in history by the using the religion card…they fooled the masses, especially those who migrated from the areas that today constitute India into leaving their ancesteral lands, assets, affluence behind so they could live in a land which would be based on the ideology of “La ilaha illa allah”, in reality they ended up in a place which was a haven and a personal feifdom for these nawabs and sahab bahadurs who you speak so highly of…