Re: original shia part 2
^ reminds me of the term “vergin brain” Cod_Red introduced here](http://www.paklinks.com/gs/showthread.php?t=171206&highlight=brain) 
Re: original shia part 2
[quote]
Even if she were to be an Imam, Bibi Fatima (as) passed away before Imam Ali (as). The succession to Imamat usually passes after the previous Imam's death.
[/quote]
Why Imam Jaffer Sadique dismissed Imam Ismail for his wrong deeds? If he commited any wrong thing it might br from Allah as you say that Imams do what Allah want them to do. So if Imam Ismail drank wine, it might be Allah's will. Why his father replaced him by his brother?
Re: original shia part 2
grammar correction:
"Why DID Imam Jaffer Sadique DISMISS (present tense, not past) Imam Ismail for his wrong deeds".
sighz
Re: original shia part 2
Is it necessary that a masoom(infallible) be a caliph as well? bibi Marium(sa) was also masoom, was she a caliph?
Re: original shia part 2
err, Imam Jaffer did neither dismiss nor replace 'Imam' Ismail, he passed away during Imam Jaffer Sadiq (as) lifetime, hence he couldn't be the sucessor. Ive never heard any of the allegation against Ismail before either to be honest. I think u need to upgrade from your graduation books.
Re: original shia part 2
Talking about imamat, i am confused about certain things
No. 1
How the successor was chosen during that time ?? What was the rule ?
Current Imam chose his successor imam, or the eldest son of current imam will automatically become next imam? or what ?
No2.
Infallibility, starts from the time of Imamat or it is from birth ? What about siblings of imams. Apart from Hazrat Imam hasan and husain(ra) are there any other sibling imam in history. ?
No3.
Why there is only one female in all masoomeen, Hazrat Fatima (ra) although she was not an imam. All the family of hazrat Ali and hazrat Fatima (ra) are considered Masoomeen except their daughters Bibi Zainab (ra) and bibi Ume-kulsoom (ra), although they are considered to be very noble ladies and beloved part of family in both sunnies and shias, but why this discrimination ? ok I know the hadees about panjtan, but then the later (9) Imams are also not mentioned in this hadess.(any hadees which mentions the name of these imam ?) but they are considered masoomeen, so why leave out these noble ladies ?**
(btw, sunnies consider them(the noble ladies) part of ahle-bayt, as being part of noble family)
No4.
In shia school of thought Imam is the political and religious leader of his time…
So take this hypothetical approach. Suppose hazrat Ali is first caliph and after him the noble imams . But what happens after 11th imam, the 12 imam Imam Muhammad (Imam Mehdi according shia school of thought) has disapeared for indefinate time. My question :*who is the Physically present Imam/ caliph after the disappearance of 12 th imam as There are beleived to be no decsentants of 12th imam ? and some 1200 years are passed *?
I know these questions are very hardcore, and many people are not aware of indepth details, so please dont feel compelled to answer. 
And if some brother/sister wants to answer then please be objective/specific and avoid lengthy details. Thanks in advance
Re: original shia part 2
1)The successor was indicated by the current Imam. Whenever a child was born to an Imam, the people wanted to know if he was the next in line. The present Imam would either reply in the positive or negative accordingly an it was not neccesarily always the eldest son. Being the eldest is not a required criteria.
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Infallibity is from birth (all kids are masoom regardless). An With the exception of Imam Hasan and Hussain(as), all Imams are father to son, right up till the12th Imam.
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You could also ask why Bibi Fatima was chosen and not The Prophet (saw) wives as panjatans, why only one child of the Imams and not thier siblings, or even why the Prophet (saw)and not his uncle. These never ending ‘why’ questions are pretty useless, in that you could go on forever an u still wouldnt get anywhere.
IMO it is not a question of why such an such were chosen and others were not, but more along the lines of whoever was chosen by the Prophet (saw) (and hence ALlah (swt)) would be accepted as our leaders full stop. The Prophet (saw) words are final.
So to answer your question, its not a question of discrimination or disrespect. Well from our view it isnt atleast. The simple answer is, because these are the chosen people from Allah (swt), they have thier own maqaam that noone can surpass. You may also have heard of the ahadith, that ‘whoever holds on to the rope of Ahl’ul Bayt will never go astray’, well this is where we apply it and put them before everyone else after the Prophet (saw).
There is a hadith (am sure uve are familiar with it) of when the Panjatan were covered with the blanket, and the Prophet was about to do dua, Bibi Umme Salma (the wife of the Prophet) came forward to ask if she could join, the Prophet replied saying, you have your own maqaam and respect, however you are not of the chosen Ahl. I guess that distinction pretty much somes it up.
- There is no Imam after the 12th Imam. He is the present Imam. Because he is in ghaibat, people think he is physically absent, but the fact is he is on this earth, and he is in in touch with everything that is going on and from his (as) own words, he is like the the rays of the sun behind a cloud. He is present, but not visible to the people. Infact, he is said to perform Umrah on certain days, a few people who have been in dire trouble have said to have done is ziyarat.
Apart from that, whilst we wait for his return, for our masail, we have our marja who we consider as the representatives of the Imam in his absence. We do taqleed to these marja’s and follow them in fiqhi and shari masail only (not in beliefs). This system was instilled by the Imam himself, when he went into Ghaibat-e-sughra, he chose 4 representatives, for whom people would contact for masail and questions. It is thought to this day, qualified marajas (they aren’t that many altogther) are influenced and aided by the Imam himself in many cases, directly or indirectly.
Anyways, hope that was specific enough. If you want any hadith i mentioned, lemme know.
ps- look what i came across whilst searching the forums; i cud’ve sworn i was repeating myself. 
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/showthread.php?t=164213&page=1&pp=30&highlight=panjatan
Re: original shia part 2
Is it necessary that a masoom(infallible) be a caliph as well? bibi Marium(sa) was also masoom, was she a caliph?
I can ask the same question with regards to Ali (R). That is what I am saying. There is purity, and then there is infallibility. Two separate things.
Re: original shia part 2
pcg: What do you mean by 'purity' in terms of the Ahl ul Bayt?
IMO, masoomiat does not mean you are incapable of sin or that you dont have the ability to do so, but you have the maqaam, knowledge & the exalted character within that keeps you 'purified' from the sins. It is all from free will, an that is the merit of thier personality that gives them such a high maqaam. IMO, only the angels have the inability to sin, which means even if they wished to, they couldn't.
Anyways, heres a def. from islam.org:
*The power of infallibility or sinlessness does not make a person incapable of committing sins; rather, he refrains from sins and mistakes by his own power and will. *
Re: original shia part 2
I agree with your df of purity, in that purity is not something automatically conferred to a person, its by virtue of their own strong will.
sins and mistakes are two different things.
Refraining from sin is doing your best to follow the teachings of the Quran.
This is different from taking on a political role and doing everything perfectly. The sunnis also agree that Ali is a morally great guy. And he very well might have not sinned ever after he became muslim. Its totally possible for people to do, if their will power is strong enough and if they keep themselves busy enough in the deen.
But Shias go FURTHER than this, and say purity = infallibility, and therefore, Ali should be the first caliph, and his kids should be the the subsequent caliphs, and that no other Sahabah should be allowed to be a caliph.
- Infallibility means not only that one is free from sin, or not error-prone to sin, but it also means that you will make the perfect political decisions, that you will be the perfect political leader, and that no one has any right to be a political leader other than this person.
So, its pretty much clear to me that purity has been misused to create a monarchy, essentially.
For if only Ali and his descendants can lead, then why is that not clearly stated in the Quran? Why do we have to solve a riddle to get there?
Purity is one thing. Infallibility is another. Purity has to do with moral sins. Infallibility has to do with knowledge.
Ma Mooli, if you are infallible, then you are never wrong. So if you say 2 + 2 is actually 3, then you are by default correct, and others wrong, by virtue of the fact that you are infallible.
Same basic principle with your imams. If your imams say something, you must accept it as truth. This is different from a pious sin-less person (pure person). The pure person will be humble in their knowledge and they will not ask you to buy into their knowledge of the world.
A pure person will not claim they are infallible, because that is not humility.
Furthermore, you need to distinguish between divine knowledge, worldly knowledge, and morality.
Saying someone is moral (pure) does not mean they have infinite worldly knowledge (infallibility), and divine knowledge (infallibility).
Infallibility means you make a statement X, and whatever that statement X is - it is TRUE. (and I'm arguing here with the idea of individual-independent reality).
So if a leader, like Ali or any other caliph, were infallible, then every decision they make is right. Every action they take is right.
Did this happen with any Caliph? No. :)
In fact, Ali was the last caliph, and he could not manage to keep Muawiah in check. And Muawiah and his son Yazid caused a great deal of fitnah. Don't you think Ali knew that Muawiah was fabricating hadith's against him?
You say Ali is infallible.
Yet Ali let Muawiah stay in power.
He let Muawiah create a great deal of fitnah.
I'm sure Ali did not do this intentionally, for he was pure. But did he have enough worldly knowledge to keep an eye on this guy when he's already started to create trouble from day one by not willing to work with anyone?
Every caliph made mistakes. They were human. They were thus, not infallible. Only God is infallible.
But many people can be pure.
Re: original shia part 2
pcg: IMO it all comes down to interpreation. Whilst infallibility maybe too strong a word, it is merely a translation of masoomiat. When you think about it, purity and infallibility are just attempts to translate from arabic. maybe 'pure' suits best.
Also, i dont agree with your view that you may be pure moral wise but not politically. Politics is an ingrained part of Islam, you cant seperate the two. So any political decision was ineffect a religous one at the same time. It was not a secular system, else sharia law would not have covered any poltical aspect. Hence, in our view, Imam Ali (as) decisions were always for the best for the muslims, in whatever situation at the time. The prophet (saw) did say afterall, 'I am the city of knowledge and Ali is its Gate', 'Ali is with the truth and truth is with Ali' and so many others that it gives clear indication as to whom would be best as a leader, in all matters after the Prophet (saw).
As for Muwaiyah, i think your misinformed. Mauwiyah was made the governer of Syria at the time of Caliph Umar (the 2nd caliph), he remained the gov. in caliph's Usman's time, but removed from office during Imam Ali's time. So if you want to fault anyone for allowing him into politics, it shud be the earlier caliphs, cuz Mauwiya was instilled and supported by them.
Also you say, a pure person would never ask others to buy into their knowledge of the world. Imam Ali was a perfect example of this, and it was for this reason he was isolated by the majority. He never forced his views on any one. Even when the khwarijis called him kafir for refusing to accept Muwaiyahs ploy of raising the Quran, people were fuming and wanted to finish the khwarijis off. Imam Ali refused saying we can only wage war as defence, so leave em be.
In todays time, he would've been known as a quietest, as were the following Imams, because of the suppression of the ruling khilafa, which was ineffect a continuation of the early caliph system. Yazid came through the very same system. That is why shias insist, that purity is a required criteria for islamic leadership cuz you cannae have any joe blogg becoming your leader, for their personal gains. That becomes detrimental to islam as a whole, as yazid showed in kerbala.
Re: original shia part 2
^ good points :k:
Still many unresolved questions.
And yes, it depends on the interpretation. You put up a very well written out argument up there. I still don’t think that purity alone can make you a good leader. Infallibility does not necessarily follow from purity, although your point about how political leadership is part of our deen so purity would include proper political leadership.
Nice work there. :k:
Re: original shia part 2
Fair enough. IMO purity comes with knowledge, an knowledge is a criteria for leadership no?
btw, thanks. 
am glad the effort was worthwhile. :k:
Re: original shia part 2
:) I still disagree with you, but unlike other mutt sunnis here, I'm not going to treat you like garbage because you disagree with me.
Re: original shia part 2
And stay quietly in your houses, and make not a dazzling display, like that of the former Times of Ignorance; and establish regular Prayer, and give regular Charity; and obey Allah and His Messenger. And Allah only wishes to remove all abomination from you, ye members of the Family, and to make you pure and spotless. - 33:33
Ma Mooli 
If you are going to use the above verse to prove the infallibility for the imams then you have a problem.
As the verse says that “Allah (swt) wishes to remove all abomination” & “and to make you pure and spotless”, the question arises; Allah (swt) will only remove abomination if it was present and make pure and spotless if that was lacking.
I am not attacking any personalities even if it seems to be so, but the point is that no body is born infalliblee except of course the Prophets (asa).
I think the mistake is in using the wrong words in translations.
There is a definite word for Infallibility in Arabic and that word is Ismah.
The best word for Masoomiat in English would be Innocence [Blamelessness]. But it does not mean infallible.
It should be noted that being a masoom does not mean that one cannot err or commit sins. Rather, a masoom can err and commit sins but chooses not to do so. Thus he/she keeps away from all forms of sins and acts of
inadvertency.
The following Hadith Qudsi 25 shows that anyone who gains “friendship” of Allah (swt); Allah becomes “am his hearing with which he hears, his seeing with which he sees, his hand with which he strikes and his foot with which he walks.” and “Were he to ask [something] of Me, I would surely give it to him, and were he to ask Me for refuge, I would surely grant him it”.
This too shows purity and blessings of innocence for Allah (swt).
On the authority of Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him), who said that the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said: Allah (mighty and sublime be He) said:
Whosoever shows enmity to someone devoted to Me, I shall be at war with him. My servant draws not near to Me with anything more loved by Me than the religious duties I have enjoined upon him, and My servant continues to draw near to Me with supererogatory works so that I shall love him. When I love him I am his hearing with which he hears, his seeing with which he sees, his hand with which he strikes and his foot with which he walks. Were he to ask [something] of Me, I would surely give it to him, and were he to ask Me for refuge, I would surely grant him it. I do not hesitate about anything as much as I hesitate about [seizing] the soul of My faithful servant: he hates death and I hate hurting him. - It was related by al-Bukhari.
There are many hadith in Shia literature which in fact denies infallibility to their imams in the full sense of the word [infallibility].
Re: original shia part 2
There are many hadith in Shia literature which in fact denies infallibility to their imams in the full sense of the word [infallibility].
I dont have access to much Shia literature/hadith - can you post it up for us if you know of particular hadith's?
Re: original shia part 2
**As the verse says that “Allah (swt) wishes to remove all abomination” & “and to make you pure and spotless”, the question arises; Allah (swt) will only remove abomination if it was present and make pure and spotless if that was lacking.
I am not attacking any personalities even if it seems to be so, but the point is that no body is born infalliblee except of course the Prophets (asa).**
Could you just explain this in a little more detail? I don't get what you're saying here.
Re: original shia part 2
^ ^ Allah (swt) will only wish to remove abomination if it was present otherwise why would He wish to remove something which ain’t there?
Secondly, Allah (swt) will make something pure and spotless only if it needed to done so.
One cannot purify which is already purified. Otherwise Allah (swt) would have said that He is going to purify them further to the Utmost Purification.
I hope that made sense.
About the literature in Shia hadith, I am PM’ing you the link. It is an article by a one-time Shia who was a research student in Kuwait and Iran – I think.
Re: original shia part 2
Ibn Sadique, you couldnt resist huh? I told you once instead waisting your time on Anti Shia websites like Alakhbar, ansar.org etc do your own search before blindly following what these web sites state.
Ibn Sadique, my brother, If you are going to use the above translation (From Yusuf Ali) of verse to support you claim then you have a problem.
Today even sunni scholars admit that there are flaws in the translation of the Holy Quran done by Abdullah Yusuf Ali.
The more accurate translation of ayah 33:33:
is from M.H Shakir: (mejority of sunnis acknowledge his translation to be authentic)
And stay in your houses and do not display your finery like the displaying of the ignorance of yore; and keep up prayer, and pay the poor-rate, and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House! and to purify you a (thorough) purifying.
You see there’s a wast difference in to keep away and to remove. Infact it changes the whole meanings of the verse. And If you anylyse the words used in arabic in this verse then you will notice the following:
(i) *Innama *(verily or only) signifies exclusive distinction. To emphasise this exclusiveness, the second object of the verb ***yudh-hiba *(keep off)-**the phrase *ankum *(from you)-has been put before the first object *al-rijs *(all kind of uncleanness); and for further emphasis, the phrase *Ahl ul Bayt *has been mentioned to explain the pronoun *ankum *(from you). The grammatical structure of the whole clause indicates that this a unique privilege or distinction granted to the Ahl ul Bayt only, excluding all others.
(ii) The verb *yuridu *implies that the continuous will or intention of Allah is His creative will or intention, not legislative. To interpret the will as the legislative will as in Ma-idah: 6, distorts the whole fabric of the verse and renders meaningless the exclusive particle and the constructional arrangement. Even then it means that only the Ahl ul Bayt exclusively achieved the standard.
You claim that only prophets can be pure and infallible, I dont know form where you take that from (from sites like ansar.org, alakhbar i guess) but if you read al-Sawa’iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar, Ch. 11, section 1, p220, it states**:**
Based on the opinion of the majority of (Sunni) commentators, the saying of Allah :“Verily Allah intends to … (the last sentence of the verse 33:33)” was revealed for Ali, Fatimah, al-Hasan, and al-Husain, because of the usage of masculine gender in the word “Ankum” and after that.
moreover Ibn Abbas (RA) narrated:
“We have witnessed the Messenger of God for nine (9) months coming to the door of Ali, son of Abu Talib, at the time of each prayer and saying: 'Assalamu Alaykum Wa Rahmatullah Ahlul-Bayt (Peace and Mercy of God be upon you, O Members of the House). Certainly God wants only to keep away all the evil from you, Members of the House, and purify you with a thorough purification.’ He did this seven times a day.” Sunni reference: al-Durr al-Manthoor, by al-Hafidh al-Suyuti, v5, p198
there are lot other tradition from sunni text I could post here but for sake of time (I am at work now) and because of the restriction of using ctrl+c & v I refrain to post’em here.
This is an absurd claim, since the day I am converted to shiaism (AlhamdoLillah) I have never heard such a thing from a single shia or any shia alim. Moreover search al-islam.org for Infallibility. Its the main site that represent Shiaism online.
Here](http://al-islam.org/quran/process.asp?tArabic=on&tShakir=on&tYusufali=on&tPickthal=on&tAliCommentary=on&Sura=33&SavedSura=1&fAya=33&tAya=33&searchText=&arabicdisplay=windows) is an online commentry of well known shia scholers Aqa Mahdi Puya and M. H Ali on the verse 33:33. I think it would be enough to rufute your absurd claim. Again, stop waisting your time at Anti Shia websites.
hmm! 
, why not post it here openly, what are you afraid of? Refutation?? And is that one-time Shia an authority on shiaism??
Re: original shia part 2
Ibn Sadique (long time no see eh ),
I believe we’re working on different translations here. Personally, i find shakirs translation to be more authentic. But that aside, from your Yusuf Ali’s translation, you ask, ‘why Allah (swt) would remove abomination from the already purified’, i guess the same question could be applied to the Prophet (saw). If he was infallible from birth, was there a need to be purify him again?
As i stated before, I agree with this defination. Also, on infabillity, ahadith that contradict with the quran on infallibilty are deemed unreliable. The Quran overrides everything. but id be interested in the students link. You may have sent it once before, but Id appreciate it if u cud send it again. 