Thank you very much Ma Mooli, for taking some time and answering my questions, dont worry about repetation, you will get extra sawab :k:
Now I have some more related questions but one question now (I know you are a busy person, answer it whenever you have free time:) )
Which is also fundamental stand point in shia ideology “Purity is required criteria for islamic leadership” Now what happens after Imam Mehdi went to “Ghaibat-e-sughra” We need a Islamic leader for every practical purpose ( for all state of affairs) just like you have marajas for “practical religious affairs/guidance” …
So technically after 12 Imam went into ghaibat you have to chose an Islamic leader who is
1.) Not pure (like imams)
**2.) Not from the progney of Imams **
So how we are going to cater this situation while our (shia ideology) in your words ..
Brother Zero1 :flower2: – Yeah the temptation was too strong. I just had to have my say in it.
I guess that you too had the same compulsion and had to join in the tussle. Yeah I know the feeling.
Sunnis may find some faults with his choice of words but not in this case. What the Sunni Ulemah object to is the Tafseer and his own opinions he has expressed in explanation of the verses. In fact his translation was the most published in the world going a few years back even by Sunnis too.
Bear in mind the Abdullah Yusufali was a Shia of Bohri Shia persuasion.
I am giving you a few translations of the verse 33:33 that I had access form the Net with the link:
[Ahzab 33:33] And remain in your houses and do not unveil yourselves like the unveiling prevalent in the times of ignorance, and keep the prayer established, and pay the charity, and obey Allah and His Noble Messenger; Allah only wills to remove all impurity from you, O the People of the Household, and by cleansing you make you utterly pure. (*The Holy Prophet’s household.)
[Shakir 33:33] And stay in your houses and do not display your finery like the displaying of the ignorance of yore; and keep up prayer, and pay the poor-rate, and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House! and to purify you a (thorough) purifying.
[Yusufali 33:33] And stay quietly in your houses, and make not a dazzling display, like that of the former Times of Ignorance; and establish regular Prayer, and give regular Charity; and obey Allah and His Messenger. And Allah only wishes to remove all abomination from you, ye members of the Family, and to make you pure and spotless.
[Pickthal 33:33] And stay in your houses. Bedizen not yourselves with the bedizenment of the Time of Ignorance. Be regular in prayer, and pay the poor-due, and obey Allah and His messenger. Allah’s wish is but to remove uncleanness far from you, O Folk of the Household, and cleanse you with a thorough cleansing
I find that only Muhammad Asad has used the same words as Shakir.
You keep saying the Majority of Sunnis this or that without any proof. Believe me I would know what the Majority believe – and I would go with the Majority – I don’t like to be on the fringes.
Just to confirm what I have said I will give you the translation of the same verse from Tafseer of Ibn Kathir which is counted among the most authentic by the Sunni Ulemah over the ages.
Note that it has narration from Hz. Abdullah ibn Abbas (ra) which is at variance to the one you posted:
**The Wives of the Prophet are Members of His Household (Ahl Al-Bayt) **
(Allah wishes only to remove Ar-Rijs from you, O members of the family, and to purify you with a thorough purification.) This is a clear statement that the wives of the Prophet are included among the members of his family (Ahl Al-Bayt) here, because they are the reason why this Ayah was revealed, and the scholars are unanimously agreed that they were the reason for revelation in this case, whether this was the only reason for revelation or there was also another reason, which is the correct view. Ibn Jarir recorded that `Ikrimah used to call out in the marketplace:
**(Allah wishes only to remove Ar-Rijs from you, O members of the family, and to purify you with a thorough purification.) "This was revealed solely concerning the wives of the Prophet.‘’ Ibn Abi Hatim recorded that Ibn `Abbas said concerning the Ayah: **
(Allah wishes only to remove Ar-Rijs from you, O members of the family,) "It was revealed solely concerning the wives of the Prophet.‘’ Ikrimah said: "Whoever disagrees with me that it was revealed solely concerning the wives of the Prophet , I am prepared to meet with him and pray and invoke the curse of Allah upon those who are lying.'' So they alone were the reason for revelation, but others may be included by way of generalization. Ibn Jarir narrated that Safiyyah bint Shaybah said: "A’ishah, may Allah be pleased with her, said, The Prophet went out one morning wearing a striped cloak of black camel's hair. Al-Hasan, may Allah be pleased with him, came and he wrapped him in the cloak with him. Then Al-Husayn, may Allah be pleased with him, came and he wrapped him in the cloak with him. Then Fatimah, may Allah be pleased with her, came and he wrapped her in the cloak with him. Then Ali, may Allah be pleased with him, came and he wrapped him in the cloak with him, then he said:
(Allah wishes only to remove Ar-Rijs from you, O members of the family, and to purify you with a thorough purification.) This was recorded by Muslim. In his Sahih, Muslim recorded that Yazid bin Hayyan said: "Husayn bin Sabrah, Umar bin Muslim and I went to Zayd bin Arqam, may Allah be pleased with him, and when we had sat down with him, Husayn said: You are so fortunate, O Zayd! You saw the Messenger of Allah and heard his speeches, and you went on military campaigns with him, and you prayed behind him. You are so fortunate, O Zayd! Tell us what you heard from the Messenger of Allah .’ He said, O son of my brother, by Allah, I have grown old and it has been a long time, and I have forgotten some of the things that I used to know from the Messenger of Allah . Whatever I tell you, accept it, and whatever I do not tell you, do not worry about it.' Then he said, One day, the Messenger of Allah stood up to address us by the well of Khumm, between Makkah and Al-Madinah, and he praised Allah and thanked Him, and he preached and reminded us. Then he said:
(Thereafter! O people, I am merely a human being and soon the messenger of my Lord will come and I will answer him. I am leaving behind two things with you, the first of which is the Book of Allah in which is guidance and light, so seize the Book of Allah and hold fast to it.) He urged them to cling to the Book of Allah, then he said:
(And the members of my family (Ahl Al-Bayt): Remember Allah with regard to the members of my family, remember Allah with regard to the members of my family.) saying it three times.’ Husayn said to him, Who are the members of his family (Ahl Al-Bayt), O Zayd Are not his wives members of his family' He said, His wives are members of his family, but the members of his family are those who are not permitted to receive charity after he died.’ He said, Who are they' He said, They are the family of Ali, the family of Aqil, the family of Jafar and the family of Abbas, may Allah be pleased with them.’ He said, Were all of these forbidden to receive charity after his death' He said, Yes.‘’’ This Commentary is from Zayd bin Arqam and is not Marfu`
Further we have hadith form Sahih Muslim which states “Allah only desires to take away any uncleanliness from you”
*'A’isha reported that Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) went out one norning wearing a striped cloak of the black camel’s hair that there came Hasan b. 'Ali. He wrapped hitn under it, then came Husain and he wrapped him under it along with the other one (Hasan). Then came Fatima and he took her under it, then came 'Ali and he also took him under it and then said: Allah only desires to take away any uncleanliness from you, O people of the household, and purify you (thorough purifying) * Sahih Muslim Book 031, Number 5955
I stand by my claim that Sunnis believe that only Prophet (asa)’s among the Humans can be infallible as they have to carry Message of Allah (swt) to the Mankind. The rest whether they be Hz. Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Ali, Faitmah, Hassan, Hussein, Ibn Abbas etc. [May Allah (swt) be pleased with them all] are fallible. We should not confuse infallibility with Purity of the soul. These are two very different things.
The hadith Qudsi that I had quoted in my previous post does show that Pure souls do have ‘protection’ from Allah (swt) form committing sins whether major or minor. Committing a sin is sign of rebellion against the commands of Allah (swt).
This doesn’t mean that these people cannot make mistakes in their judgments or decisions, and as humans they can forget or opt for a lesser choice than the better one ‘open’ to them inadvertently.
heh koi baat nahi codey, ugleh saal june 2006 meh phir repeat kar du gi. am free at the mo but consideing the downer of the net at your end, you may take your time. :-D
The simple answer to the question, we do not have to choose an islamic leader, because the 12th Imam is our spiritual leader. The marjae are representatives of the Imams, who do not narrate there own ahadith, but spend thier lives researching the hadith an sunnah of AhlulByat (as), and apply usool e fiqh and ijtihad. Although a mujtahid is for your lifetime (unless he passes away), you are not required to stick to that mujtahid if u are not satisfied with his ruling, hence purity for them is not a requirement. With the Imam (as) however, the option of deflecting does not even arise. That is the differenc between islamic leaders and islamic representatives.
However, having said that, it is not easy to become a marja. It takes around 30/40 years of min. research to get to that stage of knowledge, and even then, it is up to the people to read thier published books and choose them as thier muqallid. There are other criterias that also have to be fulfilled before they can be accepted as one, which is why not every alim can reach that stage. There maqaam is quite high, but not to the extent of masoom. Close enough maybe.
Aside from the 12th Imam, there is no one islamic leader . Presently, we have around 10 mujtahids, out of which about 4/5 that openly allow thier taqleed. The burden of the fatwa on the mujtahid is high as any wrong fatwa will be thier responsibility, hence why many dont come forward to allow people to be thier muqallids. People go out of their way to choose their mujtahids themselves. At the moment, the 2 most popular are Ayatullah khamenie (iran) and Ayatullah Sistani (iraq). Although both are seyeds, being a progeny of Imams is not a requirement to be a representative.
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We need a Islamic leader for every practical purpose ( for all state of affairs) just like you have marajas for "practical religious affairs/guidance" ...
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As i said before, when you say Islam is a way of life, thats the way it is. Religion or fiqh means Islam in all aspect of your life, i.e in all state of affairs. Take Seyed khamenie for example, he is running Iran, or take Seyed Sistani for example, he's running Iraq, by guiding and influencing political, religious, social, and every aspect you can think of. Not only for the iraqis, but millions of shias world wide. So religion affairs is not limited to your mosque pulpit, it encompasses every aspect of your life.
When i said earlier ; we do taqleed to these marja's and follow them in fiqhi and shari masail only (not in beliefs). what i meant was, in terms of beliefs (Tawhid, Adl, Nabuwat, etc.) it is wajib to do our own research and come to the conclusion of true Islam ourselves. Mujtahids cannot tell us what to believe in as that would be following blindly. Heres a better explanation from islam .org:
It should be observed that taqlid pertains only to the realm of the shari'ah; there can be no taqlid in the matters of belief (usulu 'd-din). A Muslim must hold his belief in the fundamentals of his religion after attaining conviction of their truth through examination and reflection. The Qur'an very clearly condemns those who follow others blindly in matters of belief.
There are many hadith in Shia literature which in fact denies infallibility to their imams in the full sense of the word [infallibility].
To my above statement the following was your reaction:
Being a Shia you have taken objection to my above statement, rightly so according to your views.
As Shias do take their Imams to be infallible, do you really think that Shia sites that you frequent will dig up the hadith material from their books which states the fallibility of the Imams? Highly unlikely, it will be sacrilegious!
Just to allay your fears that I must be bluffing I shall provide you with the link to the website of the one-time Shia research Student. His name is Ahmed Al Khatib. Even though he ‘problems’ with Shiaism as far as I know he has not opted for Sunnism as yet.
This is his official website in Arabic: http://www.alkatib.co.uk/ Here he has put links to the debates he has had with his contemporaries.
The part you will be interested in is here: http://www.alkatib.co.uk/e7.htm Just scroll down a few paragraphs till you reach the heading: **THE POSITION OF MEMBERS OF THE PROPHET’S FAMILY (AHL AL BAYT) ON INFALLIBILITY **
Brother Zero1 Would you believe me if told you hat I do not visit the sites that you have hinted at? Trust me; there are tons of others on the Net. I try to widen my knowledge from many sources. I do pay occasional visit to Shia sites too. Frankly speaking I do feel a bit allergic to sites run by ‘Sufi-types’.
Well, everybody has their own preferences.
I have read material by Aqa Mahdi Puya (Pooya) and I find him to be an extremist just as much as the sites that you want me not to waste my time on.
One of the sites I do visit is the following: http://www.understanding-islam.com/ where a very friend of mine who is an Iranian and an ex-Shia and has been a ‘thorn’ on various debating Forums with Shias with the Nick of Student ( I am sure you must have come across him.) But on this site he goes by the name of Abdullah Rahim.
You can read his articles related to the topic on hand.
**About the Purity of Ahl’l Bayet (The Prophet’s Household) **
You can easily notice that he has ‘soft spot’ for Shias. If I want to know anything about Shiaism; he is the one I turn to.
Incidentally there a hadith in Sahih Muslim referring to an incident where Hz. Ali (ra) burnt people to death who had attributed divinity to him. I am sure there must be a reference to this incidence in Shia literature.
Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn ‘Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, ‘Don’t punish (anybody) with Allah’s Punishment.’ No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.’ " Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 260
**Ma Mooli ** ( Two flowers for you) Yes it’s been a loooong time – but I have been on the sidelines and am still tangled in a rather ‘bruising marathon’ with a Dude from Texas.
It is true that it falls down to the choice of words selected for the translations. And personal inclinations of the translator do creep in.
I have a objection to attributing infallibility to non-prophets whoever they may be.
DUDE Please don’t tell me by sources you are referring to sites… that claims some book as near and dear shia book… and the only thing you could find on net was a website that referred to that book… or is the website which refers a book as a shia book and the onlything on net out there is just that one sunni forum website referring to it… or are those the websites that have 101 stories which you quote from but don’t give any references???
Here are some authentic sources if you want to learn more about shiasm www.al-islam.org
Following is a book written by a person on why and how he converted to shiasm.
I have read material by www.al-islam.org/**guided**
Also a detailed debate between shia and sunni ulema can be found at following webstie… www.al-islam.org/peshawar/
I am guessing in response to the above website.. Ibn Sadique you probably have some usual website as a response full of lies but no the actual debate between too… Am I rite Mr???
lol a marathon… hmm I asked you five questions and you were very sick to answer them and had to put it off for next sunday and yet you have time to reply to these threads… hmm I wonder how???
Yeah Imam is in Ghaibat.. but he won’t be there forever inshallah… May Allah make him appear in our lifetimes…Ameen… he shall appear in public when its Allah’s will.. Prophet P.B.U.H. have given hadiths to confirm his coming… yeah we have other marja who help us with certain issues but Imam Mahdi is still our Imam they cannot replace them.. he is there to defend islam whenever it would be needed… Its the will of Allah for him to be in Ghaibat… the same way its his will for Hazrat Issa… Hazrat Khizr..Prophets who are alive but they are not in public but they are still working towards the interest on the religon… the same way Imam Mahdi.. is our Imam and is working towards the interest of religon.. and shall appear in public by the will of Allah SWT… when there is a need… the same way the Imams before him where there to defend islam before him… an example can be seen from the incidnet of Kerbala…he is doing the same in the ghaibat and should appear in public when its the will of Allah SWT.
And yet it was you who claimed that some of the sunni highly respected Imams like Imam Hanafi and Imam Maliki… they were the students of shia Imams… its amazing you chose students over the preacher and now doubt their infallibility.. atleast answer my question… if your Imams had to come to the door of shia Imams to seek knowledge.. where did our Imams get their knowledge from… isn’t it interesting firq Jafferia have 12 Imams and teaching on none contradicted the others and you have 4 two of them you claimed were students of these Imams and yet you guyz have differences… hmm isn’t it interesting if it takes 4 to take difference how come there are 12 Imams and teaching of none contradicted the others… and why sunni had to choose the students over the teachers…
Sorry Ma Mooli, I think I was not able to convey my question properly, let me try again
You know and I know that according to shia ideology, religious and political leadership can only be adhered to pure infallible people (i.e noble imams), after the demise of prophet.
According to my knowledge, all the Imam followed the teaching of Prophet and did no addition or subtraction in Islam. They only acted as guide and explained various difficult issues in light of Quran and sunnah. (correct me if i am wrong ! )
In my view what Imams used to do, now these marjae doing (i.e religious guidance) but they are fallible !
Before the time of going in ghaibat Muslims had this luxury of consulting infallible religious leader but now they do not have this luxury ??? Now muslims have to chose the source of guidance on their own understandnig which could be quite wrong as well
you said
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you are not required to stick to that mujtahid if u are not satisfied with his ruling, hence purity for them is not a requirement.
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Now comming to more important aspect.
Political leadership
Take hypothetical approach…
Starting from Hazrat Ali (ra) we have 12 Imams ( who should have been political leaders according to shia ideology ) simply because they are infallible (masoom and chosen ones). Now after Imam Mehdi went into ghaibat(disapearance) after some 200 years of prophet’s :saw: demise. The world has not ended yet..
There are millions of muslim who need political leader (Khalifa ) for all practical purposes. ( like everything a head of state is reuired to do ). We need a physically present leader for that. So, after 200 years of prophet’s demise we will have to chosse a political leader who is not pure as Imams were. And no matter how good he may be, he is fallible ! (which is against shia ideology)
Now how shia ideology going to tackle this issue, that leadership utimately will go to the people who are fallible and not part of ahle bayt.
Exactly! ofcourse these marjae are fallible eventhough they spend their lives doing research.. but you can’t ignore the fact that Imam Mahdi is still present… the fact that he is still alive doesn’t mean he is not doing anything… he is working towards the interest of People but not everyone knows where he is… and at the time of need I am sure he is there to help and defend islam.. as his parents like Imam Hussain stood up against Yazeed.. its like Prophet khizr who is still alive and working towards the interest of people but no one knows where he is and when were they helped by them…
nah based on the following hadiths it will ultimately be with Ahle bait…
Tirmidhi narrates from the Holy Prophet Muhammad (pbuh&hf): “A man from my ahl al-bayt whose name is like mine will verily rule the world, and if there remains but a single day before the end of time, Allah will prolong that day till he assumes rule.”
al-Jami’ al-Sahih, Tirmidhi, 9: 74-75.
Ibn Majah narrates from the Holy Prophet Muhammad (pbuh&hf): “We are the ahl al-bayt for whom Allah has chosen the hereafter to this world. My ahl al-bayt after me will face difficulties, hardships, and persecution in the land until a people will come from the East, bearers of black banners. They will demand the right, but it will be denied. So they will fight and emerge victorious. They will be given what they demanded but will not accept it till they give the right to rule to a man from my ahl al-bayt who will fill the earth with justice as it was filled with oppression.”
*Sunan *Abu Dawud, ol. 2 hadith#4082 and 4087
Also quran has the following ayat which asks to follow them in the following ayat
“O’ you who believe! Obey Allah, and Obey Apostle and those from among you who are given authority (by Allah).” (Quran 4:59)
for taking some time and answering my questions, dont worry about repetation, you will get extra sawab :k: 
