This is in reference to a brief discussion with Axiom.
Religion is most likely invented by man to satisfy his psychological needs. It was invented by men and not women and does reflect men’s needs. It has evolved for centuries in different forms.
There has never been a single material proof for existence of God because it is not needed. Religion is a philosophy and philosophy does not need scientific or material facts.
Who knows truly? Who here will declare whence it arose, whence this creation? The gods are subsequent to the creation of this. Who, then, knows whence it has come into being?
Whence this creation has come into being; whether it was made or not; he in the highest heaven is its surveyor. Surely he knows, or perhaps he knows not.
rig veda
If religion is/was only the psychological needs then it proves that humans are far more insecure than any of the other living being present on this planet & actually are at a disadvantage.
Anyway, those who ask for a 2+2=4 proof of God, fail to understand the very nature of belief & accountability based on that belief. If belief was suppose to be distinctly objective than what is the purpose of being rewarded or punished? What strive did a human do on his part to be rewarded for a very trivial concept?
The idea that religion was a man's creation (and not a woman's) is also very shallow. If today a survey of the world is done, you will find that women are far more "religious" than men. And the history shows that religion as professed by it's founders, regardless of being eastern or western, has always liberated women. It is believed that the commandment of Adam was to marry, provide & protect for his family. Which liberated woma/en from being the sole provider & protector of the new born.
Lastly, I have never seen an atom, electron or proton & for sure will never see an anti-body. Let me go a little further and say that I don' t believe I can ever figure out what light truly is. Was Newton true or not? Yet I believe that it exists! You can call me a physco but hey I like it this way! :)
rvikz; dont mind it but the reference from rigveda only adds up confusion rather than clarifying anything, e.g. "who knows what" and "Surely he knows, or perhaps he knows not."
ahmadjee; humans do feeel insecured because they THINK.Any other living being dont think in the same sense and so do not feel insecure in the same sense. This feeling of insecurity created the need to have somebody all powerful and being in control of everything.
I think the concept of "liberation of women" itself arises from the concept of " Slavery of women" by men.
I would argue that why any religion has failed to provide any women prophets?
Not seeing an atom etc is probably not an strong argument because you have not seen an atom but you have proven it by objective experiment and analysis(atomic bomb and nuclear reactor are examples). In case of God no objective evidence exists so far other than the THEORY that everything has a creator therefore there must be a creator. It will remain a theory, philosophy and faith.
First, how do you know that other living being don't think the same way? Do you have an objective proof or is it only your faith?
Secondly, IMO the objective proof of the existence of God is supplication. When He responds to His believers, the faith becomes so strong that it manifests itself through that human being. Usually those who deny His existence haven't experimented in His way to begin with.
For women prophets, you have to revise your research. Hazrat Mari'am (as) though might not fit into the narrow definition of prophethood but Qur'an establishes her status nothing less. Look at the goddesses of Hinduism or of ancient Greeks. I have recently studied the American Indian religions & it's not uncommon to address 'spirits' as females.
If someone objects that God has favored on men to be prophets (in the stricter version of definition) than someone else can object, how unjust is He who only gave women the pains of child birth, even though I look at it as a blessing on women. Yet another might protest that why some are black in skin & others are not (depending on his own insecurity of skin preference) & why some are strong, rich & beautiful while others are not?
But if you "believe" in the bigger picture of life, as a test, as a choice, as a concept of doing the right/best thing whatever wherever you are, because you have "faith", than these little things don't matter anymore.
Please don't consider my thoughts above as a claim that all those who claim to believe, claim because they have faith. Maybe they do, maybe they don't, I don't have the capacity or the desire to figure it out.
Dear ahamadjee, instrument for thinking is language, other beings may not have language, have tones, gestures, but no language and no thinking.
If the humans had no language, could go ahead without fantasy of religion.
It is quran or Gita or Bible, I assure you that magic is not possible and no angel or god makes any audience.
It is psychology that has accepted some certain norms, fears....is not ready for revolt.
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*Originally posted by analyze it: *
rvikz; dont mind it but the reference from rigveda only adds up confusion rather than clarifying anything, e.g. "who knows what" and "Surely he knows, or perhaps he knows not."
ahmadjee; humans do feeel insecured because they THINK.Any other living being dont think in the same sense and so do not feel insecure in the same sense. This feeling of insecurity created the need to have somebody all powerful and being in control of everything.
I think the concept of "liberation of women" itself arises from the concept of " Slavery of women" by men.
I would argue that why any religion has failed to provide any women prophets?
Not seeing an atom etc is probably not an strong argument because you have not seen an atom but you have proven it by objective experiment and analysis(atomic bomb and nuclear reactor are examples). In case of God no objective evidence exists so far other than the THEORY that everything has a creator therefore there must be a creator. It will remain a theory, philosophy and faith.
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To believe in God is impossible not to believe in Him is absurd. -- Voltaire
most initial religion in the human history reflects only the thinking of man of that times only and nothing universal and this is the reason religions have gone through evolutionary periods. Most of the religions do not exists in the form they were created e.g look at Christianity or Hinduism. Islam is trying to stick to its original form and is having hard times in modern times.
Initial religions had many Gods e.g Hinduism or Greek Mythology, with evolution of religion man understood that one God is easier to understand than many so All modern religions were invented with one God in mind.
With further evolution of religionm Atheism or No God is becoming a popular religion. I would refer what I said earlier that Religion is a necessity to satisfy the human psychology.
Miracles happen in every religion and prayers are accepted of followers of all religions. If there is a God , he does not discriminate anybody on the basis of their religion for sure.
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*Originally posted by ahmadjee: *
First, how do you know that other living being don't think the same way? Do you have an objective proof or is it only your faith?
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Quite possible animals have very limited thinking power based on scientific evidence. Obviously not enough thinking to create a religion.
Lets discuss one thing at a time
IF religion was invented by a man[Muhammad(SAWS) in the case of Islam] then why didn't that particular man ask the people to worship himself. Muhammad(SAWS) could have said "Worship me alone". But he didn't say that. He said "Worship Allah alone" Maybe in other religions, People might have said"Worship me". That is one of the reasons we don't believe in other religions.
If Islam was invented by Muhammad(SAWS) why did he practice whatever he taught? He could have said "I invented this religion so I don't need to Pray or I don't need to fast. I am exempted from its obligations. But he was the best example of what he taught. In other religons the person who "invented" the religion might have not himself practiced what he taught. That is another reason why we don't believe in other religions.
I am only referring to Islam because I have very limited knowledge of other religions.
Believers usually talk, God says, God has siad so and so…as if they just have had an audience with God. Or they say…God has promised,….or God will definitely help,…It seems that all the time they give direction to God. Atheists in this matter at least do not lie.
I cannot understand non-vegetarian believers. It is something very absurd.
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*Originally posted by Axiom: *
Lets discuss one thing at a time
IF religion was invented by a man[Muhammad(SAWS) in the case of Islam] then why didn't that particular man ask the people to worship himself. Muhammad(SAWS) could have said "Worship me alone". But he didn't say that. He said "Worship Allah alone" Maybe in other religions, People might have said"Worship me". That is one of the reasons we don't believe in other religions.
If Islam was invented by Muhammad(SAWS) why did he practice whatever he taught? He could have said "I invented this religion so I don't need to Pray or I don't need to fast. I am exempted from its obligations. But he was the best example of what he taught. In other religons the person who "invented" the religion might have not himself practiced what he taught. That is another reason why we don't believe in other religions.
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some super natural entity is accepted by humans in various forms
and ways . various religens have explained through their prophets
only about 2000 years ago . it took humans to form organised relgens
only recently considering the human existance for hundreds of thousands
years. thousands of years before organised religens formed there
were local beliefs not competing with each others but just fulfilling
local spirtual neeeds. organised religens demands loyalty to its
faith and prophet and exclsuive.
if god can create the universe he could have created or proggrammed our mind to create one single religen or prophet accepted by all.
"some super natural entity is accepted by humans in various forms
and ways . various religens have explained through their prophets
only about 2000 years ago . it took humans to form organised relgens
only recently considering the human existance for hundreds of thousands
years. thousands of years before organised religens formed there
were local beliefs not competing with each others but just fulfilling
local spirtual neeeds. organised religens demands loyalty to its
faith and prophet and exclsuive."
rvikz,
Islam says that the message of God was preached, since the first man stepped on earth, Adam (AS). Religions were present since the beginning of humanity. Those religions were tampered with, and were were used to fulfill local spiritual needs. Islam, the last and final religion, is still untampered and it will remain unchanged till the end. If any one claims that the Quran has been changed then the Quran challenges him to take out atleast one flaw in it(Which has been tried by a lot of people in the past 1400 years, all failing to do so). Humans are not perfect. If the Quran was made by a human then there should have been atleast one mistake in it. Besides, how could have the illeterate people of the 7th century who didn't even know how to read or write tell us about the scientific facts discovered by modern science recently(see the salman rushdie thread, I have quoted the verses in it.) All those verses could never have been written by illeterate people 1400 years ago. It has to be divine, proving the existence of God
"if god can create the universe he could have created or proggrammed our mind to create one single religen or prophet accepted by all."
If God would have done this then what would have been the purpose of creating humans? God told us what is right and what is wrong. God has given man the power to decide what is right and what is wrong. He has made Humans, the best of all creations. Humans have been sent in this world to abstain from what is wrong and do what Allah has ordered(what is right). Humans have not been programmed to do right to find out who obeys Allah and who doesn't.
rvikz can a little pencil come into existense on its own? If not, then how do you think that an entire universe can come into existense on its own. There has to be some one who created the Sun and the moon and all the other things in the universe in perfect harmony with each other. That some one is God, Allah.
one sentence: God DOES exist or else we wouldn’t have the 3 monotheistic religions that have survived 'til today, all believing in the same Almighty (hence the existence of religion both as a philosophy and a way of life).
God may exist, but existence of monotheism is not a direct correlation to its veracity. Just another channel. Monotheism is like cable tv. It is new, but channels change and like all disruptive techinologies, something new might come by in a few years that changes the paradigm to the path to god. But major networks will keep humming along. They survived cable, they will survive webtv. :)
ALso there is no correlation between believing in the same god and those religions being a philosophy or "way of life". There is only religion that can truly profess to be a way of life, it is Buddhism.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Axiom: *
"if god can create the universe he could have created or proggrammed our mind to create one single religen or prophet accepted by all."
If God would have done this then what would have been the purpose of creating humans? God told us what is right and what is wrong. God has given man the power to decide what is right and what is wrong. He has made Humans, the best of all creations. Humans have been sent in this world to abstain from what is wrong and do what Allah has ordered(what is right). Humans have not been programmed to do right to find out who obeys Allah and who doesn't.
rvikz can a little pencil come into existense on its own? If not, then how do you think that an entire universe can come into existense on its own. There has to be some one who created the Sun and the moon and all the other things in the universe in perfect harmony with each other. That some one is God, Allah.
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i am not questioning some higher power. but questioning one religen'S
claim of superority over other.
an individual can perfectly live normal life without even bothering to know all these complex origins. are you going to say he should be persecuted for not knowing ? there is no minimum qualification in religious theology to live on this earth.
The religious scriptures describe only the knowledge which was known or thought to be known to the man of that time. e.g. Look at Bible, Koran or Geeta. If these are truly divine books written by God, why the information depicted is limited to what was known to man of that times.
Koran and Bible have identical stories of prophets which are already folktales known in those times.
Both Bible and Koran describe Adam as first man. So how one can explain findings of skulls and bone of man who have been proven to be living in caves and a missing link between monkeys and humans.
Why is that Koran prohbits and stresses strongly only the alcohol and not cigarettes and heroine and Marijuana specifically by name? Whay is that America is not mentioned anywhere in any divine scriptures?
To prove the point that religious scriptures provide the material knowledge only to the point which was known to the man of that times and therefore likely to written by men.
We know that Sun is static in relation to Earth and moon and that earth and moon are rotating around the sun. A common belief of old times was that earth is static in relation to sun and that sun revolves around sun. This belief was held up until Galileo proved it wrong and was killed by religious authorities.
" And the Sun runs on its fixed course for a term…." [Ya-Sin(36:38)]
".... And He has subjected the Sun and the moon. Each running for an appointed term. Verily, He is the All-Mighty….." [Az-Zumar(39:5)]
"...He has subjected the Sun and the moon (to continue going round)! Each running (its course) for a term appointed……" Ar-Ra'd (13:2)]
"And He it is Who has created the night and the day, and the Sun and the moon, each in an orbit running." [Al-Anbiya(21:33)]
"Allah merges the night into the day, and merges the day into the night, and has subjected the Sun and the moon, each running its course for a term appointed; and that Allah is aware of what you do." [Luqman(31:29)]
Signs is that the sky and the Earth stand by His Command…." Ar-Rum(30:25)]
"Verily! Allah grasps the heavens and the Earth lest they move away from their places,…" Fatir (35:41)]
"Is not He Who has made the Earth as a fixed abode……" [An-Naml (27:61)]
"He has created the heavens without any pillars, that you see and has set on the Earth firm mountains, lest it should shake with you……" [Luqman (31:10)]
"It is god who has made for you the Earth as a resting place and sky as a canopy" [Al-Baqara (02:22)]
"And He has affixed into the Earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with you, ..." [An-Nahl (16:15)]
Let's analyze the Prophet's speech in the Hadith (Where does the Sun go to at night? Volume 4 Number 421)
The Earth is permanently established. It will not move" [PSLAMS-93/1,96/10 and 104/5]
or,
"Sabita made this Earth fixed by different devices (like hills and mountains) and sustains sky without pillars so that it does not move" [RIK VEDA]
or,
"The sky is immovable, the Earth is immovable and these mountains are also immovable" [RIK VEDA 10-173-4] etc.