Operation in Waziristan

[yazdi]

Okay lets consider what you are suggesting.

Gov brings Taliban to negotiating table, they ask for teh army to pull out of FATA, as a condition for peace which teh government does. Army comes back, FATA is under Taliban, who regroup, Al-Qaeda groups hiding in Afghanistan, come back into FATA. *Government looses control of the Pak-Afghan border. *Resolution is presented in UN by India and US, that Pakistan is unable to clear its territory of terrorist hideouts and ask for trade embargo. Resolution is backed by all countries including the brotherly Islamic nation of Iran&Iraq, Indonesia, MAlaysia, Turkey. 5-10 arab nations refrain from voting. Exports drop by 50%, inflation rises by 100%. *India, backed by its Afghan allies starts a terror campaign in Pakistan, like the eighties. *Drome attacks increase on FATA, in retaliation, Taliban target western companies, counselets in Pakistan. Pressure from international community mounts. *Baloch separatists are supported by Indians, increase their activities and gain a voice in international forums. Get a resolution in UN for right of self determination. *Political climate deteriorates, army takes over. Qazi tells you to be strong likee Cuba, and Pakistan becomes another Cuba, where a college professor cannot buy one shoe with his salary. *Drugs increase, unemployment , infant mortality rises.

Is that what you want for your country?

A very fair analysis Icono brother!

Don't forget that in the past our government gave them leverage to consolidate in Swat and FATA regions. First they killed all the tribal elders by suicide bombing the jirgas, and eventually declared their independent emirates by taking all the local population as hostage. They destroyed schools particularly girl's schools, took over the task of justice as per their understanding. Killed muslims of different sects.

They gave safe havens to all kind of domestic and global terorists. They used these havens to kidnap Pakistanis from all over the country for ransom, and most of the ransom payments were made in these areas. They planned and executed all kind of terrorist and criminal activities from these havens of safety for criminals.

Any attempt to give in again to these terrorist will result in eventual destruction of our society in every part of the country.

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety-Benjamin Franklin"

[Iconoclast]

Re: Operation in Waziristan

^You have rightly pointed out Yazdi, another facet, if Taliban are left alone in FATA. As you said, the main problem for them would be to have a sustain supply of funds. They woud get it either from Qaeda related sources from abroad, drug trade, levying taxes (Bhatta) on wheat and rice suppies from Pak to Afghanistan and criminal activities.

[Captain_FT]

i dont mean this with any undue disrespect but you are so stupid. before you win this war with the 'fake' talibobs your countries andrah (intestines) will be splattered all over.

your willingness to 'ameen' a do more command from a known pakistan hater, well lets not even comment on this

you will not and can not win this war

support a peaceful solution now

well with due respect i also say that may be ur so stupid to think like that or ur highly misfortuned and underestimated Pak Army's gutts and capability that Pakistan could not win this foreign imposed war.

well what the hell has ur NATO and US had done in afghanistan to succeed? they are going to hell after being whipped out from that country and still about 70% afghanistan is in taliban's control.

moreover it is also not the country of US, as it had brutaly imposed a war there and is being whipped out like Soviet Union and Russian president has also warned NATO and america to get out from afghanistan otherwise they will also be whipped out to hell like Russia in 1989.

what the hell that modern technology is doing for them there? well now after the results u will definitly accept the fact that not only modern weapons are needed in a war, but also religous beliefs are also strongly needed in the war which are the true beliefs. understand?

[burqaposhx]

@Captain_FT

... but also religous beliefs are also strongly needed in the war which are the true beliefs. understand?

1 religious belief is "Do not start death and destruction WITHIN your own country".

2 religious belief is "Speak truth"

3 religious belief is "be honest"

4 religious belief is "love and protect your fellow countrymen at every cost."

5 religious belief is: "Respect the women, and raise your children so they are successful in this world".

Your beloved Talbhianics in Pak or Afghanistan DO NOT believe in any of the above.

And yet you are hoping against hope that their religious belief of Qatlo-Gharat and dakka-bazi will win.

Strange.

[shardmanny]

Okay lets consider what you are suggesting.

Gov brings Taliban to negotiating table, they ask for teh army to pull out of FATA, as a condition for peace which teh government does. Army comes back, FATA is under Taliban, who regroup, Al-Qaeda groups hiding in Afghanistan, come back into FATA. *Government looses control of the Pak-Afghan border. *Resolution is presented in UN by India and US, that Pakistan is unable to clear its territory of terrorist hideouts and ask for trade embargo. Resolution is backed by all countries including the brotherly Islamic nation of Iran&Iraq, Indonesia, MAlaysia, Turkey. 5-10 arab nations refrain from voting. Exports drop by 50%, inflation rises by 100%. *India, backed by its Afghan allies starts a terror campaign in Pakistan, like the eighties. *Drome attacks increase on FATA, in retaliation, Taliban target western companies, counselets in Pakistan. Pressure from international community mounts. *Baloch separatists are supported by Indians, increase their activities and gain a voice in international forums. Get a resolution in UN for right of self determination. *Political climate deteriorates, army takes over. Qazi tells you to be strong likee Cuba, and Pakistan becomes another Cuba, where a college professor cannot buy one shoe with his salary. *Drugs increase, unemployment , infant mortality rises.

Is that what you want for your country?

this is the same picture originally painted by musharraf, i do have caution for it

so do you think the US is genuine in its fight? ie if it is genuine and pakistan helps out it will escape a more sinister plan for it?

[shardmanny]

1 religious belief is "Do not start death and destruction WITHIN your own country".

who are you refering to?

are you becoming infected burqs?

[quote]

4 religious belief is "love and protect your fellow countrymen at every cost."

[/quote]

do you really want pakistanis to think about this considering the current circumstances?

[burqaposhx]

who are you refering to?

Read the post again and you will see.

[Iconoclast]

this is the same picture originally painted by musharraf, i do have caution for it

so do you think the US is genuine in its fight? ie if it is genuine and pakistan helps out it will escape a more sinister plan for it?

No Musharraf was saying that they will bomb us to oblivion, which i think will not happen, they would have crushed Pakistan economically and isolated it.

Whats the US plan, thats te big question.

[shardmanny]

Re: Operation in Waziristan

^the official version of 9/1/1 is the truth?

[burqaposhx]

@Iconoclast

No Musharraf was saying that they will bomb us to oblivion, ...

Musharraf never said that. He made a reference to the ISI general (who was in DC on 9/11). It was the ISI general who "heard" it from Dick Armitage (asstt/deputy or some lower level of director in state dept) that US will bomb Pak.

However Armitage denied ever having said that.

Americans were going to bomb Afghanistan and they did.

For Americans, Pakistan is the golden sparrow actually more precisely Pakistan army is the golden sparrow.

No where in the world, Americans can find 100s of 1000s of Asian troops who are well trained, disciplined, and totally professional AND pro-West.

Indian army comes from the same north-West subcontinent stock, but it has not been under a pro-West Delhi (it changed only in the last decade or so).

If I were an American/British general, I would be arming Pak army instead of bombing it.

And that's precisely what US/UK have done since 2001 (or since 1800s for the sake of discussion).

It is time, Paks quit living in the fantasized conspiratorial world.

@Iconoclast

....... Whats the US plan, thats te big question.

US plan????

What's the big mystery? They are doing what all great powers of time have done aka civilize the tribals who threaten them. And kill the urbanized groups who create instability.

Turks used to beat the cr@p out of Arabs because Arabs tribes created instability.
Romans used the beat the cr@p out of Germanic tribes because ????
So did the Greeks, Persians, and later the West European powers.

Some of the European powers didn't understand who the real dada is. Like Germany, Italy (and Europeanized Asians) Japan made that mistake. And guess what, they all got their cr@p beaten out of them, and they all (even after 60 years) have HUGE American army bases in their countries.

[Iconoclast]

Re: Operation in Waziristan

^So whats the end of it? Whats the US goal ? Finishing Taliban r just a kick in their behing and then get out?

[burqaposhx]

^So whats the end of it? Whats the US goal ? Finishing Taliban r just a kick in their behing and then get out?

How far the US goes, really depends on the will of Americans. If the will breaks, Afghanistan could become a vietnam. On the other hand if the will doesn't break, Afghanistan will be much more stable and civilized.

All in all, a stable and civilized (or less tribal) Afghanistan will be much much desirable from Pakistan POV.

Operation in Wazirastan so far has shown that Pakistani tribes are ready to settle down and become urbanized. That's why Talbhianic pigs have not received large scale support from the general population.

Perhaps Afghani tribes are the same too. If Americans army learns from Pakistan, they too will succeed in the Eastern and South East of afghanistan. This will perhaps for the first time in the bloody history of Afghanistan, make that gad awful region a single cohesive country.

And that seems to be American goals to make it a single governable country and have a pro-West leader running that country.

As described above, it really depends on the will of American people, and craftiness of Obama admn to achieve these goals.

[LastOfTheDinosaurs]

Re: Operation in Waziristan

December 23, 2009

West Point Study casts doubt on Pakistan Army’s battle claims against Taliban

Peter Goodspeed
The National Post
Doubt cast on Pakistan’s battle claims

While Pakistan’s Prime Minister, Yousuf Raza Gilani, has claimed a military offensive in South Waziristan is over and successful, a new study published by the Combating Terrorism Center at the U.S. Military Academy at West Point, N.Y., is far less enthusiastic.

**It suggests there is little evidence of heavy fighting in the area because “it appears most militants fled in the face of the government advance.”
**
The fact the Pakistan army telegraphed its intention to launch an offensive for almost four months before sending troops into South Waziristan on Oct. 17, allowed the bulk of the Pakistani Taliban to withdraw and disperse to neighbouring tribal areas, the study says.

The Pakistan government claims to have killed 589 Taliban terrorists during the offensive and says 79 of its troops were killed in action, but the study says it is difficult to confirm those claims.

“It was impossible for the media to independently confirm both the military and Taliban claims of casualties due to the lack of access to the conflict zone, disrupted lines of communication and the dislocation of almost all of the civilian population from the area,” said Rahimullah Yusufzai, the security analyst who wrote the report.

Spokesmen for the Taliban insist the hardline Islamists executed a “tactical retreat” from their strongholds in South Waziristan. They also claim that while the Pakistan army occupies the major roads in South Waziristan, they remain entrenched in the surrounding forests and mountains.

Still, the report says the Taliban’s retreat did not appear to be well organized since they left behind heavy weapons and even cooked food, suggesting they fled in a hurry.

“Lending credence to the TTP’s [Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan, Movement of the Taliban in Pakistan] claims about a tactical retreat, the government has so far failed to kill or arrest any senior TTP leaders,” the study says .

“Even by accepting the military’s claims of 589 Taliban fighters killed, it is clear that the majority of fighters – numbering in the thousands – were able to escape and will likely continue to pose a threat,” Mr. Yusufzai said.

The study suggests Taliban fugitives and as many as 1,500 foreign fighters may have relocated to the Orakzai Agency tribal area to the north. This is where Hakimullah Mehsud used to command a wing of the TTP before he took control of the organization in South Waziristan after the group’s founder, Baitullah Mehsud, was killed by a U.S. drone last August.

The Pakistan Taliban have retreated, replicating tactics used by the Afghan Taliban, the study says. Now, they can be expected to employ guerrilla tactics to harass advancing troops and attack remote outposts.

The Taliban have also retaliated by carrying out suicide bombings and other attacks in Pakistan’s urban centres.

For its part, Pakistan’s military says it is concentrating on clearing militants from captured territory in South Waziristan and hopes to restore public services in the region in time to allow local tribespeople to return to their homes in April.

But Mr. Yusufzai predicts the region could slide into a prolonged insurgency and counter-insurgency. “The struggle is far from over,” Mr. Yusufzai said. "The TTP has proved through its unrelenting campaign of terrorist attacks in Pakistani cities that its capabilities have not been fully degraded.

“Its success in hitting high-security military targets through complex suicide assaults proves that it can continue to launch operations,” he said.
Doubt cast on Pakistan’s battle claims

[zaini747]

This is a reality they had constructed a parallel govt in FATA and i think its a good operation against miscreants

[mercenary2k]

@LastOfTheDinosaurs

December 23, 2009

West Point Study casts doubt on Pakistan Army’s battle claims against Taliban

Peter Goodspeed
The National Post
Doubt cast on Pakistan’s battle claims

While Pakistan’s Prime Minister, Yousuf Raza Gilani, has claimed a military offensive in South Waziristan is over and successful, a new study published by the Combating Terrorism Center at the U.S. Military Academy at West Point, N.Y., is far less enthusiastic.

**It suggests there is little evidence of heavy fighting in the area because “it appears most militants fled in the face of the government advance.”
**
The fact the Pakistan army telegraphed its intention to launch an offensive for almost four months before sending troops into South Waziristan on Oct. 17, allowed the bulk of the Pakistani Taliban to withdraw and disperse to neighbouring tribal areas, the study says.

The Pakistan government claims to have killed 589 Taliban terrorists during the offensive and says 79 of its troops were killed in action, but the study says it is difficult to confirm those claims.

“It was impossible for the media to independently confirm both the military and Taliban claims of casualties due to the lack of access to the conflict zone, disrupted lines of communication and the dislocation of almost all of the civilian population from the area,” said Rahimullah Yusufzai, the security analyst who wrote the report.

Spokesmen for the Taliban insist the hardline Islamists executed a “tactical retreat” from their strongholds in South Waziristan. They also claim that while the Pakistan army occupies the major roads in South Waziristan, they remain entrenched in the surrounding forests and mountains.

Still, the report says the Taliban’s retreat did not appear to be well organized since they left behind heavy weapons and even cooked food, suggesting they fled in a hurry.

“Lending credence to the TTP’s [Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan, Movement of the Taliban in Pakistan] claims about a tactical retreat, the government has so far failed to kill or arrest any senior TTP leaders,” the study says .

“Even by accepting the military’s claims of 589 Taliban fighters killed, it is clear that the majority of fighters – numbering in the thousands – were able to escape and will likely continue to pose a threat,” Mr. Yusufzai said.

The study suggests Taliban fugitives and as many as 1,500 foreign fighters may have relocated to the Orakzai Agency tribal area to the north. This is where Hakimullah Mehsud used to command a wing of the TTP before he took control of the organization in South Waziristan after the group’s founder, Baitullah Mehsud, was killed by a U.S. drone last August.

The Pakistan Taliban have retreated, replicating tactics used by the Afghan Taliban, the study says. Now, they can be expected to employ guerrilla tactics to harass advancing troops and attack remote outposts.

The Taliban have also retaliated by carrying out suicide bombings and other attacks in Pakistan’s urban centres.

For its part, Pakistan’s military says it is concentrating on clearing militants from captured territory in South Waziristan and hopes to restore public services in the region in time to allow local tribespeople to return to their homes in April.

But Mr. Yusufzai predicts the region could slide into a prolonged insurgency and counter-insurgency. “The struggle is far from over,” Mr. Yusufzai said. "The TTP has proved through its unrelenting campaign of terrorist attacks in Pakistani cities that its capabilities have not been fully degraded.

“Its success in hitting high-security military targets through complex suicide assaults proves that it can continue to launch operations,” he said.
Doubt cast on Pakistan’s battle claims

Most of them fled to other agencies…

Pakistani Army is not designed for gureilla warfare.

We need to create a seperate counter-insurgency force like a Pakistan National Guard of 100,000 - 150,000 men and train them in combating these animals.

Our Army should be kept as a conventional deterrant

[Das_Reich]

@mercenary2k

Most of them fled to other agencies....

Pakistani Army is not designed for gureilla warfare.

We need to create a seperate counter-insurgency force like a Pakistan National Guard of 100,000 - 150,000 men and train them in combating these animals.

Our Army should be kept as a conventional deterrant

good observation, and i think its a useless distraction from army's main job which is defending the western frontier

[CM]

Re: Operation in Waziristan

I like it how the US military can comment on such issues when they don't even control 90% of Afghanistan.

[mercenary2k]

I like it how the US military can comment on such issues when they don't even control 90% of Afghanistan.

Its a strategic analysis from one of the most prestigious military academies in the world.

Please don't taint the analysis with your anti-Americanism.

[safar777]

Re: Operation in Waziristan

There are hundreds of 'think tanks' and 'analysts' in the US. You can get any kind of opinion based on what you are looking for. You want a conservative opinion go to a Heritage foundation, you want a liberal opinion go to another one. 'Think tanks' and 'Analysts' are a dime a dozen in USA.