Old questions, same story, new thoughts ?

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Assalam-o-Elekum
The story I am going to tell you is a cliche’. An old story, but you will find it being repeated every time and every where. I am sure that each one of us has come across this situation and have been asked the solution of this dilemma. I am also positive that most of you must have a very mature and concrete opinion about this issue. I would like you to share your ideas on this issue.

So what do you think of a boy and a girl who know each other for a while (say for example they work in a same office, or study in a same class, or may know each other very well because they live in a same area). They understand each other, respect each other’s feelings and most of all they like and love each other. Despite the fact their family back ground is different, their social and cultural differences are deep and above all there is a huge financial disparity between their families, they have very good understanding between each other. They are so evenly happy and optimistic about their future that they decide to marry each other How ever when they discussed this matter with their family, they are shocked to hear that those differences which they think are trivial, are so important for the their parents that they decide to oppose this marriage strongly.
Let me stop my story here. Listening the story up till now, few questions arise in my mind and may be few more in your mind.
My questions are

  1. What do you think about those socioeconomic differences? I know that they play very important role in interpersonal relationship, but the question is to what extent should we allow them to play this role?
  2. What do you think about the boy and the girl? Knowing the fact that they have these differences, do you think that they should not have even proceed further and they should have stopped in the beginning of their relationship.
  3. What about their families? Are they justified opposing this marriage even they know that both girl and the boy really like and love each other and it would be disastrous for them if they do not get marry?
    And the last question .
  4. What do you think the boy and the girl should do now ? (They tried their best to convince their parents but in vain.).

[This message has been edited by uicdoc (edited February 06, 1999).]

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By the way. Don't take me wrong. This is not my problem. I am a married man and Alham-do- Lillah, father of a cute 1 year little girl.

(Just to keep the record straight).

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I think Shakespeare dealt with this issue in a similar story titled "Romeo and Juliet". He did a pretty good analysis, better than any of us could do, I'm sure.

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I am sorry, What was the analysis of Shakespear?
Its a nice discussion. I would like to hear more about it

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In my opinion, they should marry. Maybe take some more time so that parents are not offended. But they should marry. It is so rare that you meet someone whom you like. If you happen to meet him/her, it is stupid to throw away the deal for outside considerations.

Afterall, parents are not going to help you if you get in an unhappy marriage. They think that they know you and what is best for you. But very often, the gap between parents and child is so big, because of lack of frankness in Asian family, that they know nothing.

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From my personal observation, love marriages usually fails in our society. As far as i can analyse, it is because of the fact that when only a boy and girl are meeting they are doing so only for few hours out of 24 hours and during that period they are at their best, i.e. in everything - looks, behaviour etc. Whereas you can only judge a person if you have travelled together, done some business and unfortunately i forgot the last point - it is the saying of one of the Khulfa-e-Rashdeen.

so my point is that the things which looks perfect to them is because they actually overlook many facts of the life which their parents don't because of their experiance.

If the families think they cannot move togetherthen the boy and girl should respect them and stop. As you may know very well in our socity maariage is just not a bond between a boy and girl, it is actually a bond betwen 2 families.

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uicdoc.
I do not think that this is an old question or ols issue. This is an existing issue and every other member of our society has to face this issue at some part of his life.
My thoughts are that of,like some of other reeaders in this thread that a boy and a girl should be given to the right to chhose thier lofe partner. Parents should recognize this fact and should endorsed them. But if they don't, then the the boy and the girl should get marry even against the will of the will of their parent.

8

Nice topic!
uicdoc has started a very intresting discussion with 4 basic questions. Achtung want us to read "Romeo and Juliet", amin and most of us don't have the time to read Shakespeare, and PG and others are partly sticked to Q:4 and no one is answering all the 4 basic question, which I think was the origional reason for this posting by uicdoc... so be ready for my response....!

1st of all love is the Most wonderful feeling one could ever had in their life time, but unfortunately now it become a cliche, and different people have different meaning and depth for this word.

Marriage is a social and religious act to start a new family, and Love is not among the pre requsite to establish this institution, good intention and commitment does.

now come to your 4 question

1) It is always better to have compatability, and socioeconomic and other compatibility plays an importent role in the start esp. in arrange marriages but Love marriage is a totally different animal, If one is realy in love...and want to get married then this question is a useles one and, it should't come to their mind.

2) the answer to this question is very simple and very difficult at the same time, and I think this is the Most importent question of this topic, in fact Q:3 is only the extention of Q:2, I don't think that I am capable enough to answer this question but I w'll try.

love give new meaning to words , its open new frontiers, its a revolution within, its expends the horizon of thought process, it exposes us towards sprituality as a reality in this glamerous material world, and certainly it does not require any stamp from the socity in the form of marriage to acquire above feeling and blessing, Love is an independent institution itself, and not dependent on marriage.

Getting married will bring the climax ( some time anticlimax) to love but it will not be a disaster because of the same reason, it does not depend on marriage, it started with out marriage and it will contineue in the same way, its intensity might fluctuate with time but this is very natural, even lovers who gets married face similar phenomenon in a good number of cases.

As far as opposition from family is concern, I think they are justified in opposing any in compatable marriage because they do not see and feel what lover are going through but they mostly see practical aspect of live which start after few months of marriage.

I don't think that parents know that "it would be disasterous for them if they do not get marry?" yes because if they knew they will not goona oppose, in most cases.

People don't thing before falling in love , again because of its puriety and independent nature, so to stop loving someone or to proceed is irrelevent for love. And I am not taking about plotonic love, I am talking about love which has flesh and blood in it.

Some love start from beauty and affection and end on the flesh, and other pass through the flesh and blood towards ultimate destination " From Ishq kay majaji to Ish kay Haqiqi" but all are within the big circle of love, one is love of "Nafs-i Ummarah and other is of Nafs-i Mutma-innah".

As far as Q:4 is concern, I think both option will be right but its impact will be different, or in other words getting married with out parents consent and participation is abselutaly justifiabe and a right one, on the other hand not getting married because of parents opposition is also a wise and right decission....! in view of my above comments.

I will be happy to get more teaching on this topic

Allah Hafiz

[This message has been edited by Aadmi (edited February 08, 1999).]

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I am very surprised to see that this discussion which is very relevant and important for us and people like aadmi is trying to dissolve this issue by making it a philosophical and metaphysical discussion.

I agree that parents think in the betterment of their children, But that's not the case all the time, especially in decision like marriage.
Most of my readers even uicdoc will agree that in our society, the decision of marriage is based on religious (sect or cast), familial (syed or malik), social, cultural and more so on financial back ground of the girls and boys. The least important things in these are the consideration of wishes of their children. Unfortunately, this is more true when the parent or family has to deal with a girl in their family. How irony is that even in these days you will find majority of the families where parents do not even bother to know the opinion or wish of their daughters before she gets married.

I would also like to request to aadmi and others that please don't make every discussion a philosophical one. Human being is simple and lots of its problems are simple. When we make every thing metaphysical and ultra territorial, then these topics become drawing rooms discussions only.

The questions posed by uic doc are important and relevant and simple to talk about. we should all share our thoughts in it.

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[This message has been edited by s malik (edited February 10, 1999).]

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s malik
I think you posted your response to a wrong thread. In this thread we are talking about love and arrange marriages and about our parents and their aatitude towards the marriage of thier children.

uicdic has different other threads, going on in this web site. please post your response to right place.

uicdoc
, dont you have any other things to do ? what do you do for livings. It looks like you are not married, otherwise your wife would not have allowed you to spend so much time over here.
By the way, aap likhte acha hein. keep it up

[This message has been edited by amin (edited February 09, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by amin (edited February 09, 1999).]

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I am realy surprise to see that people like fatah are getting offended on my views, I thought that this was an open discussion and uicdoc wanted to get our view on the love and marriage by asking "what do you think about this... and that... and asked four question." and whatever I have written was my personal openion, related to love and and marriage, in the context of uicdoc posting.
Correct me if I am wrong,I don't think this was about "problems of girls in our society" or "un consentual marriages in our society". I am fully aware of above problems and do not endourse those kind of non Islamic in humane practices.

Now as far as this BOHTAAN is concern that, "I am trying to dissolve this issue by making it a philosophical and metaphysical discussion." is absolutely not true. I was just trying to see this issue from a different prospective, and I think this habit of labeling any serious discussion & view of others as "Philosophical one" so to avoid ones openion is not healthy. If you are in a situation where two people have different point of views on an issue and someone asked you to give your own openion, you could do two thing, 1) listen both's point of view and try to understand their differences, and analyse it before giving you own openion. 2) Is to be judegmental on the basis of ones own prejudice, choice is yours.

I don't even know what philosophy is? and Metaphysicis is beyond my reach.

Wassalam

[This message has been edited by Aadmi (edited February 09, 1999).]

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I agree with aadmi that every body has right to express himself or herself in a way which he or she wants. We can differ with their views but we can not and we should not dictate others how to express themselves.
I agree with Fatah that the questions I posted here were not philosophical and should not become only drawing room discussions. These are very important and relevant issues of our society. I agree with her that even in this age, our society gives more importance to money, cultural and social differences than the human virtues and sentiments.
How ever we have to agree with aadmi that these considerations are also important when we are talking about the marriage. Some people argue that love and mitual understanding should be the prime factor in the decision of marriage. My instinct and my intuition also in favor of this philosophy. But if that is true then why majority of love marriages ends up in failure. Why those marriages in which there are financial disparity or cultural differences, end up in turmoil in spite that fact that the couple had very good understandings of each others
In the West, marriages are based on so-called mutual understanding and love and fairness then why divorce rate is so high over here.
I have seen it several times in USA that a couple live together, love each other and have very good understanding between them selves. Based on these understanding, they decide to get marry but few months (or few weeks and some time even few days) after the marriage the same couple start having so much trouble that they end up leaving each other. Why is that ? I am unable to understand this phenomenon at all .May be some body can help me.

Fatah
In the end I want to tell you that I understand your concern about our society and its rituals. Especially with the girls we are doing lots of injustices There are lots of things happening here, which should have been abolished.
How ever if we want to create more awareness and more understanding of these issues (which are the prime objects of my postings) then we have to talk about them more openly. We have to listen other people's ideas and opinion and we have to let them talk in their own language.

Allah Hafiz

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uicdoc
you make sense. Sorry for being so sentimental.

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Nice discussion people.
Yes, allowing open discussion is the whole point. Especially here. So nice replys uicdoc, aadmi and fateh.

Uicdoc your topic is fascinating because the justification for most arranged marriage success is socioeconomic congruence and family support. Therefore, a "love marriage" that doesn’t involve the above is starting on shaky ground from the beginning.

I agree with aadmi that compatibility assists in relationship. Personally, I feel that that it is not for want of love that divorces occur but those outside factors such as culture, economics, religions etc that create animosity and difficulties. Granted love can help create acceptance of difficulties but there are some issues that are difficult for SOME to overcome every day.

Love can be metaphysical, poetic, realistic or whatever. However, it is what the individual wishes it to be and what they desire from life. Therefore it is the individuals choice, because whether they follow their own path or another’s, they are ultimately responsible for their decision.

[This message has been edited by kashmirigirl (edited February 10, 1999).]

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Now that everyone feels that we should discuss openly, here is some follow up from last few posting:
uicdoc said "In the West, marriages are based on so-called mutual understanding and love and fairness then why divorce rate is so high over here." Reason is simple, here in west marriage is a true inter personal bound b/w two individuals (in some cases, b/w same sex) which has some Tax and legal advantages over non marrital relationship.(Divorce also has monitory incentive) Most importent thing in their life is "SELF" and they analyse every situation according to " whether it is in their self intrest or not" this is what their mentality is, because of this they don't have any concept of compromise, even on pity things,esp.in big cities. Divorce is not considered as "shameful act" as in our society, and also it is not related to financial well being and security. although broken familes creates a lot of problems for kids but in the presence of single mother and single father parents out of wedlock, people discuss this as an issue but are not willing to compromise on their freedom.

I don't think arrange marriges are the answer of this situation either, just by projecting very low divorce rates in our society, It usually gives us a very wrong picture.
if successful marriage means" living togather in a house and having few kids" then it may be right but if happiness and personal satisfaction has any place in marriage then statistic could be different. Among the many reasons for low divorce rate in our soviety is, social criticism and lack of oppertunity for re marriages for females, and most of our famales are financly dependent on their husbands, so despite of grivences they opt to stay togathe and compromise
Increasing divorce rate amoung love marriage is not because of love marriage is a bad choice but because they are more ambitious and has less tolerance for in justice (either from their parents or from their lover as spouse) so they get divorce much easily then their counter parts.

Off course a successful marriage require a good understanding and compromise from both side, but this is an ideal situation. in our society most couple with differences live to gather b/c of kids, finencial incentive and social norm and values and not because of successful marriage.

One could raised this issue that are these reasons are good enough or not. I reserve my comment for next posting

Wassalaam

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aadmi
nice job. But the question posted by uicdoc in the begining of this thread remained unanswerd. What should a girl and a boy do, when they like each other, love each other, understand each other and have good faith that they will be after the marriage, and yet thier parents oppose this marraiage because of some so called,incmpability. Should they go ahead and marry or should they listen to their parents because after all 'parents are parents'.
I personally think that they should get married.Although there are some chahnces that this decision might turn out to be wrong in future, but marraige is a gamble any way no matter which way you go. In this case atleast the parties would not blame their parents and would take all the responsibilities of the consequences.
uicdoc has asked some other questions too but I think at this time I would restrict my self to only his first question. Rest next time

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Fatah
look like you are very adamant for love marrage, and you have good reasons for this, but you are missing the big picture in this issue, the point which I am trying to convey, "is combining love with marriage is not a good idea in all cases", because of few good reasons, and I would like all of you to think about it with out getting to sentimental.
If you unnecessarily combine Love & romance with marriage all the time then, one has to answer some interesting questions.

1) Do you believe that a person could only fall in love once in his or her life time?( get married or bust)

2) what do you think about people who claim that, they were in love with someone "X", and after few years b/c of one or other reason were unable to get married and few years later they found someone else "Y" and it was a real match! and involve deeply in love,but again same thing happen, so the list goes on,( they were not involve with more then one person at any time)

3) Are married people are immune to Love?
and if answer is yes, then why?
whether answer is yes or no, both requires detail explanation, and then one has to analyse "Love" it self.

4) If a married person fall in love with all its purety (please don't judge this person this is hypothetical situation) then what that married person should do?, for men we could justify upto four marriage what about women?

I don't want any confussion, only trying to show you the bigger picture.

I again think that these realities are multifactorial, and one yes or no answer does not solve all problem and it has to be consider on individual basis.

Wassalaam

i will be intrested in getting your response

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I think we are messing up the questions. This is not a question of love vs. arranged marriage. Here is a person who is already in love. Let us assume he is honest. Now if he marries the girl he loves, parents feel bad and of course if he marries the girl parents choose, he is cheating the girl.
Let us see why parents feel bad? There are many reasons. Most of which are not related to the wellbeing of the guy. There are sisters to be married. It is difficult to marry them if brother has 'doubtful character'. There are hazar guys standing out to taunt parents if there is a 'gori' bahu and at that age they do not know how to handle it. All these reasons have nothing to with if or not this guy's marriage will be successful.
I have seen 'gori' bahus going to third world countries with their husband and even staying in joint family. Many desis don't go back since their wioves can not leave the luxaries here. If the guy is good enough, girls do a lot for him and the family. The things break down when they feel that deal is not good enough to do it.
Certainly you should not be insensitive to parents feelings. That is precisely why I am suggesting to take time. Things will cool down and it will work out. Of course, an arranged marrige with a girl from back home who will have a big respect for you for simply being abroad is not a bad idea. But some may not prefer it. Let them do it that way.

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PG
You wrote this response at 5 in the morning. You must be sleepy.
Where the hell in this topic the topic of GORI came from? There is no mention of such things in the o riginal. The sotory was about the boy and the girl who were in love but parents are not agreeying because of some social, cultural and financial diffrences. The question is not about the social difrence only. How did you get the imprssion of a GORI.?