OK Its pretty dead here so here goes a question on Israel and America

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
1

Question: Why does U.S blindly and uncondtionally support Israel?
Question: Why does U.S pushes for sanctions for Nukes on Iran try but no mention of Israel?
Question: The Aid package that is given to Israel, Egypt in billions(lets say $2 billion each) is used for military hardware etc (thats part of the deal in the aid) of which 535 million is applied towards economic reforms. So the question why does U.S wants to arm other countries to the teeth and at the same time talk about peace?

On this forum I see two groups and you all know what I mean (without saying names) so I would like to see views from both sides.

Edit I posted the names thus negating my prior statement took them out

2

Re: OK Its pretty dead here so here goes a question on Israel and America

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Verizon: *
Question: Why does U.S blindly and uncondtionally support Israel?
Question: Why does U.S pushes for sanctions for Nukes on Iran try but no mention of Israel?
Question: The Aid package that is given to Israel, Egypt in billions(lets say $2 billion each) is used for military hardware etc (thats part of the deal in the aid) of which 535 million is applied towards economic reforms. So the question why does U.S wants to arm other countries to the teeth and at the same time talk about peace?

On this forum I see two groups and you all know what I mean (without saying names) so I would like to see views from both sides.

Edit I posted the names thus negating my prior statement took them out
[/QUOTE]

Answer to all of your questions:

60 yeas ago, a group of migrants (Jewish migrants) started coming to USA and they, as a group, decided to study medicine, law, business and political science. 60 years later, this community has taken the control of:
1)American health system,
2)American media,

3)American political system and most importantly
4)American financial institutions.

On the contrary, 50 years ago, another community (Arab and Palestinians Arabs) also started coming to USA. However, majority of these people decided to buy grocery stores and especially liquor stores. Now 50 year later, Mashallah, majority of the liquor stores in USA are owned by Arab brothers. Well, both communities made a choice. Final output is obvious.

why jews became infulential? why are they controling american media and american politics and we not? There is a reason behind this and we need to do some introspection here. Instead of criticizing jews for what they have achieved in USA by a careful and long-term planning in last 60 years , we better foucs on improving ourselves as a community.

3

PD thanks for the reply, however why is the Foreign Policy towards Israel so lopsided? I do understand about the success of jews and am not criticizing jews, but want to understand why U.S turns a blind eye towards the issues that I mentioned. In other words you still didn’t reply to the questions that I posted. You mean to tell me that since the jews are successful they own FP? If the Jews as you suggest are so successful then they should be elected into the higher offices as Supreme court judges or U.S presidents? this election showed that U.S is still pretty much a christian state (sorry but separation of church and state doesn’t apply anymore, it’s only in the books), hence no successful jews need to apply (they may run)
BTW I reread my post and I did not mention the word Jew at all. I actually did put Jew in the subject heading by mistake initially and then edited it out upon finding my mistake.

I pretty much knew that this thread would not get any hits. Just wanted to gauge the “stunned silence” and you know what it is very “re-assuring” :rotfl:

4

That's an impressive feat PD considering that Jews make up less than 5% of the U.S. population and around 2% of the voting block. To "take control" of those institutions you mentioned...wow pretty impressive, no? Of course Hitler blamed a Jewish conspiracy for the lose of WW1 and wrecking its economy, that wasn't true just as the fact that Jews don't own America, but it is a popular idea with some folks (including the the hate group the KKK).

But Verizon asks a good question here are some points.

The only Democracy in the region.

Dealing with a Democracy is much better than dealing with a dictatorship. The U.S. has befriended dictators throughout its time and when those dictators get bounced it leaves the relationship sour (U.S.- Iran). With Democracies the relationship is with the country opposed to with the leadership which by Democracy nature switches around.

Strategic Relationship.
Israel allows the U.S. to have an excellent viewing point within the region.

Cultures, people could relate (right or wrong).

Back when the relationship was formed with Israel the world was a much larger and narrower place. The norms and culture traits of Israel were more like the U.S.'s while the Arab world was unfamiliar. Today the world is much smaller and a nation needn't be familiar or alike with another in order to form good relations with them so this type of thinking isn't a factor anymore but the relationship with Israel had already been created.

Some reasons to think about and they are much more plausable than the belief that Jews/Israelis control the U.S.

5

It is one thing to say that Jews have strong control over Politicians, congressmen, Whitehouse and America’s foreign policy decision, but how you are going to describe the strong support of Israel among average American people? Why they have double standards when it comes to Palestinian-Israel issue? What they have to do with strong influential Jewish lobby? They don’t know jack about Jews influentially in Congress but still they blindly continue to support Israelis atrocities as right to defend and action of Palestinians as terrorism. Please don’t tell me that have been brainwashed by the media. Because in these days they are very well informed by non-American media by satellite and internet. Christians Americans don’t find too many differences between Christianity and Judaism. That’s why we hear word Judeo-Christians all the time. Everyone talks about the Jews influence over US govt but the thing that concerns me more is in increase of Judeo- Christian extremism among red states. Recent election’s result proves my point. It is funny that rich Jews who are influencing US foreign policies are democrats, but average Americans who blindly support Jews actions are middle class evangelical Christian republicans.

6

Re: OK Its pretty dead here so here goes a question on Israel and America

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Verizon: *
Question: Why does U.S blindly and uncondtionally support Israel?
Question: Why does U.S pushes for sanctions for Nukes on Iran try but no mention of Israel?
Question: The Aid package that is given to Israel, Egypt in billions(lets say $2 billion each) is used for military hardware etc (thats part of the deal in the aid) of which 535 million is applied towards economic reforms. So the question why does U.S wants to arm other countries to the teeth and at the same time talk about peace?

On this forum I see two groups and you all know what I mean (without saying names) so I would like to see views from both sides.

Edit I posted the names thus negating my prior statement took them out
[/QUOTE]

Question: Why does U.S blindly and uncondtionally support Israel?

Several reasons. "The only democracy in the region" is hollow, because only naive idealists believe that the USA's goal is to support democracies - witness the sanctions placed on democratic Pakistan from the late 1980s onwards, sanctions that were only lifted during a period of what even a Musharrafite such as myself will call dictatorship. Witness the USA's backing for the coup that tried to overthrow the democratically elected populist Hugo Chavez in Venezuela.

You have to ask yourself why the USA switched from a position of having a strict arms embargo on Israel in 1948 to todays position where it effectively donates arms to Israel - essentially, Israel proved itself to be the regional superpower of the Middle East in 1967 and 1973, and the USA wants to support (and try to dominate) the regional superpower to maintain influence in the region on its own terms.

Well - that was the reason until Dubya got elected. Some rightwing US Christians, who have significant influence in the Bush admin, hold a belief that Jews are God's chosen people and that they have a duty to support Jews.

Question: Why does U.S pushes for sanctions for Nukes on Iran try but no mention of Israel?

The same reason why the USA doesn't push for sanctions any longer on India. It doesn't view India as being any kind of threat, doesn't view Israel as a threat, but bizzarely, views Iran as a threat though the rest of even the Western world does not.

It's trying to do anything it can to stop Iran from significantly augmenting its military capabilities - capabilities that threaten the ability of the USA and its regional partner, Israel, from being able to attack Iran with impunity.

Question: The Aid package that is given to Israel, Egypt in billions(lets say $2 billion each) is used for military hardware etc (thats part of the deal in the aid) of which 535 million is applied towards economic reforms. So the question why does U.S wants to arm other countries to the teeth and at the same time talk about peace?

Military sales are a measure of diplomatic trust between countries. The most powerful way to persuade a country that you mean it no harm is to strengthen its ability to fight. The logic being that if you are hostile to a country, you would want to weaken it, if you truly are friendly, you would strengthen it. Arms sales are designed to make a country listen to you more and partner with you in regional actions such as peace treaties.

An example would be how the USA persuaded the traitor Anwar Sadat to make peace with Israel - in exchange for Egypt agreeing to take no further hostil actions to Israel, Egypt military was strengthened to its strongest point ever. A case of Arms For Peace working.

7

UTD, thanks for the reply. That is an excellent response, however it leads me to further questions. The questions will deviate the subject matter so I will try to stay the course.

[QUOTE]

The only Democracy in the region.
Dealing with a Democracy is much better than dealing with a dictatorship. The U.S. has befriended dictators throughout its time and when those dictators get bounced it leaves the relationship sour (U.S.- Iran). With Democracies the relationship is with the country opposed to with the leadership which by Democracy nature switches around.
[/QUOTE]

Agreed that dealing with democracy is better than dealing with dick-tater-ships. However U.S keeps the dick-taters in power and supports them (egypt), this plays into the hands of the people that criticize U.S Mideast policy. Same applies to Saudi-Arabia our other big ally. So my question again the U.S policy is lop-sided.

[QUOTE]
Strategic Relationship.
Israel allows the U.S. to have an excellent viewing point within the region.
[/QUOTE]

Strategic relationship ----viewing point please elaborate.

[QUOTE]
Cultures, people could relate (right or wrong).
Back when the relationship was formed with Israel the world was a much larger and narrower place. The norms and culture traits of Israel were more like the U.S.'s while the Arab world was unfamiliar. Today the world is much smaller and a nation needn't be familiar or alike with another in order to form good relations with them so this type of thinking isn't a factor anymore but the relationship with Israel had already been created.
Some reasons to think about and they are much more plausable than the belief that Jews/Israelis control the U.S.
[/QUOTE]

I totally agree with your last point.

Now the reasons I asked these questions were:
A: I was bored out of my mind last night and really wanted to hear from the two groups that visit WA frequently; their viewpoints.
B: It boils my blood whenever I remember the U.S.S Liberty disaster; where a U.S Naval vessel with American flag in international waters was attacked by Israel. (for those who are un-aware of this google U.S.S Liberty). This was swept under the rug for convenience. This is what makes me upset and leads me to believe that U.S is pressured at times to provide unstinted support to Israel. The same applies to Beirut bombing of U.S marine barracks where Israel had information and refused (for its best interest which was to save the skin of 1 informant) and let 23x number of marines lost.

So when I see these two incidents and then look at trade embargoes on Iran, and Iran being pressured because of nuke building and still being punished for hostage crisis. It makes me question the intentions of U.S policy. I know that that U.S-Iran hostage crisis is still near and dear to hearts of people so let me state I am against hostage taking, killings, beheading etc. But here you have hostage taking vs shooting at a vessel in international waters, both are equally bad but one is punished and the other let go.

8

The only thing that counts is blindly believing in things. Blind Ummah comes to mind, however, not all Ummah is totally blind, at least 14% is only blind in one eye – Kani Ummah. The remaining 19% has eyes in the ass and should be able to see it coming.

:jhanda:

9

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Verizon: * Agreed that dealing with democracy is better than dealing with dick-tater-ships. However U.S keeps the dick-taters in power and supports them (Egypt), this plays into the hands of the people that criticize U.S Mideast policy. Same applies to Saudi-Arabia our other big ally. So my question again the U.S policy is lop-sided.
[/QUOTE]

Relationships between countries are very complex and many factors are involved as we all know. During the cold war the policy was to out due the other side (U.S. vs. Soviets) via militarily and influentially. What occurred was befriending questionable leaders with poor human rights records to increase influence. It’s a cost-benefits issue. Befriending such leaders is morally reprehensible but if you didn’t then the Soviets would, which increases their inflectional sphere. This increase may cause other countries to fall to the Soviets side and at the end of the day it was believed that that would make everyone worse off, a domino effect. So what do you do? It comes down to cost-benefits.

As far as supporting Arab countries such as Egypt you need to apply the same questions. What happens if the U.S. cuts off all support to Mubarak? Will conflict with Israel occur? Will Mubarak be overthrown if so how and by who, will it be coup after coup that brings instability? Should the U.S. cut USAID projects going on in Egypt as well?

The other side should be asked as well, what if the U.S. continues to support Mubarak? These questions need to be weighed for all middle eastern countries and the most viable solution right now is to support and reward reform and that policy is a slow moving process as Arab leaders rather have the status quo remain but the U.S. knows that isn’t the best or healthiest policy for itself as it does led to increased recruitment for anti-American organizations.

The U.S. has a habit of using short-sighted policies to fix problems of the now and ignoring what may be born from them (the policies) later. Such as supporting the buildup of fundamentalists in Afghanistan to fight the Soviets who’s short term goal of causing a thorn in the side of the Soviets was very successful but who's long term goal turned Afghanistan into a terrorist safe haven. While its easy to quarterback Monday morning after the fact policy reviews need to be on-going to assure that polices aren’t creating bigger messes for the future. Anyways now I'm verging off the subject...You do hear Bush calling for reforms in the Mideast and it’s a slow process, it'll just take time.

10

Re: Re: OK Its pretty dead here so here goes a question on Israel and America

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by mAd_ScIeNtIsT: *

Question: Why does U.S blindly and uncondtionally support Israel?

Several reasons. "The only democracy in the region" is hollow, because only naive idealists believe that the USA's goal is to support democracies - witness the sanctions placed on democratic Pakistan from the late 1980s onwards,
[/QUOTE]

Reason:
Nuke program.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by mAd_ScIeNtIsT: *
Witness the USA's backing for the coup that tried to overthrow the democratically elected populist Hugo Chavez in Venezuela.
[/QUOTE]

Knowing a coup was likely differs from backing it.

11

Re: Re: Re: OK Its pretty dead here so here goes a question on Israel and America

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by underthedome: *
Reason:
Nuke program.

[/QUOTE]

There was one other democracy in the same timeframe with a nuclear programme to which a blind eye was turned...

Not just that, but until 1988 the fact that Pakistan, under military dictatorship, had an active nuclear programme programme was ignored. Only in 1990, 2 years after Pakistan had successfully, freely, and fairly transitioned to democracy, did the USA trigger the Pressler Amendment of 1985.

Democracy or non-democracy was no issue.

In case you try and suggest that the reason the USA did not place sanctions on Pakistan during military dictatorship was the pressing need for Pakistan's cooperation against the USSR - let me point out that the Pressler Amendment was passed in 1985 - during the height of US-Pak anti-Soviet cooperation.

No, for many years Pakistan was known to be developing nuclear weapons under a military dictatorship and the White House shielded Pakistan from sanctions. During the term of its first democratic government since the 70s, the USA then promptly turned against this democracy.

The USA, just like every single country on the planet, is not trying to promote any ideal anywhere in the world. Rather, all countries including the USA are entirely motivated by the Michiavellian concept of promoting their own self interests. Some democracies are out there to be promoted by the USA, other democracies pose an obstacle to the USA's interests and need to be contained by the USA. Never believe the ideological claptrap of any government - the world works just as Michiavelli wrote 500 years ago; every nation looking after just its own interests.

12

Re: OK Its pretty dead here so here goes a question on Israel and America

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Verizon: *
Question: Why does U.S blindly and uncondtionally support Israel?
[/QUOTE]

Frankly, I don't think the support for Israel is blind or unconditional. The support for the ** continued existance ** of Israel is unconditional which is not quite the same thing. What makes our general support for Israel appear unconditional is that most issues are inextricably tied to Israel's continued existence. If you could snap your fingers and magically change all attitudes in the Middle East so that the continued existence of Israel were no longer an issue, I think you'd see lots of conditions put on our support.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Verizon: *
Question: Why does U.S pushes for sanctions for Nukes on Iran try but no mention of Israel?
[/QUOTE]

Our support for the continued existence of Israel is unconditional and Israel's nuke program is seen as an element securing that continued existence. Israel is an ally and is seen (rightly or wishfully)as a country that would use nukes, if ever, only to assure its continued existence or in a fashion "friendly" to US interests.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Verizon: *
Question: The Aid package that is given to Israel, Egypt in billions(lets say $2 billion each) is used for military hardware etc (thats part of the deal in the aid) of which 535 million is applied towards economic reforms. So the question why does U.S wants to arm other countries to the teeth and at the same time talk about peace?

[/QUOTE]

Our support for the continued existence of Israel is unconditional and the military aid packages are seen as furthering that goal. More than a year ago, I presented some arguments and economic analysis in a thread dealing with the "cost of peace" in the Mideast. There would be a huge monetary cost associated with developing a thriving Palestinian economy and basically reconstructing the future Palestinian state to change it from one big refugee camp into a prosperous country. Assuming that the continued existence of Israel was secured, I certainly would support cutting military aid to the region and channeling the same level or a higher level of funding to the reconstruction effort.

For so long as the destruction of Israel is viewed as a legitimate cause by Israel's enemies in the region, we are simply stuck in a quagmire.

13

Shame on you MyVoice for even mentioning the fact that the leadership of the Palestinians have delivered economic catastrophe. Of course for some reason Arafat could not call for elections, and run on his performance. How utterly ironic that the first thing that happens after Arafat dies is a Palestinian election.

Economic oppression can be solved, but only under the condition of peace.

And, for what it is worth, historically Americans view Israel as the "Underdog". What you say, they are the oppressors! Take a look at the tiny geography of Israel, virtually surrounded by very hostile arab nations. Long before most of you were born, Arab states surrounded Israel and attempted to drive it into the ocean. Americans do not view the Palestinian conflict in a vacuum. They remember when all of the Middle East was at war with Israel.

14

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
Shame on you MyVoice for even mentioning the fact that the leadership of the Palestinians have delivered economic catastrophe. Of course for ............................were born, Arab states surrounded Israel and attempted to drive it into the ocean. Americans do not view the Palestinian conflict in a vacuum.* They remember when all of the Middle East was at war with Israel.**
[/QUOTE]

Oh is that the war that Israel started with the help of England and France made it look like as if the world was heading towards the WWIII and then came U.S.S Liberty to figure out what was going on and Israel attacked. Is that the war we talkin' about here. But answer my questions. I dont think FP is made on the fact that israel is a tiny nation if that were the case Nepal and Taiwan would have nukes as well.

15

Even Ben Gurion himself admits the guilt of his nation by saying that 'if I were an Arab Leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal, we have taken their country'. Ben Gurion also stated that 'Israel must make sure that the Palestinian refugees never return'. Drive them out!

This region has been known as Palestine for over 2000 years and belonged to the Ottoman Empire for over 400 years. So does Isreal have a right to exist? Of course not. They stole the land from the Arabs.

Israel was created with a hidden agenda using the most bizarre exploit of 20th century diplomacy.

America actively supports Israel's policy of occupancy because it serves it's interests in the Middle East and not to mention President Trumans vision. The USA's blind support for Israel is there for a reason. It is to preserve the Pax Americana ideology forced through by the zionists and neo-cons who actually run America. This itch has been there for years.

One rogue nation supports the other rogue nation!

16

Re: Re: Re: Re: OK Its pretty dead here so here goes a question on Israel and America

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by mAd_ScIeNtIsT: *

There was one other democracy in the same timeframe with a nuclear programme to which a blind eye was turned...

Not just that, but until 1988 the fact that Pakistan, under military dictatorship, had an active nuclear programme programme was ignored. Only in 1990, 2 years after Pakistan had successfully, freely, and fairly transitioned to democracy, did the USA trigger the Pressler Amendment of 1985.

Democracy or non-democracy was no issue.

In case you try and suggest that the reason the USA did not place sanctions on Pakistan during military dictatorship was the pressing need for Pakistan's cooperation against the USSR - let me point out that the Pressler Amendment was passed in 1985 - during the height of US-Pak anti-Soviet cooperation.

[/QUOTE]

Actually the U.S. suspended military aid in 1979 after Pakistan built a uranium enrichment facility.

But I'm not getting your point here MS, the U.S. allowed Pakistan to receive Billions in aid during the 80's because of the Pakistans anti-Soviet Union stance. After that threat ended the President could no longer back Aid to Pakistan as the President could in the 80's saying it was in the national interest to do so.

17

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sholay: *
This region has been known as Palestine for over 2000 years and belonged to the Ottoman Empire for over 400 years. So does Isreal have a right to exist? Of course not. They stole the land from the Arabs.

[/QUOTE]

And before that the area was know as Judea. Jews lived there as well as Arabs.

18

sholay thanks for the reply I need clarification

[QUOTE]
It is to preserve the Pax Americana ideology forced through by the zionists and neo-cons who actually run America
[/QUOTE]

Can you elaborate on see bold above. Furthermore can you explain your statement. See UTD's reply.

[QUOTE]

That's an impressive feat PD considering that Jews make up less than 5% of the U.S. population and around 2% of the voting block. To "take control" of those institutions you mentioned...
[/QUOTE]

myvoice so you agree then that U.S Mid-East policy is lopsided and favors unconditionally (as you put it) Israel?

19

Re: OK Its pretty dead here so here goes a question on Israel and America

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Verizon: *
Question: Why does U.S pushes for sanctions for Nukes on Iran try but no mention of Israel?

[/QUOTE]

Don't know about others but this one is easy to answer.
Iran is surrounded by brotherly Islamic nations. Except Saddam's little skirmishes with Khomeini, no one has ever threatened the very existense of Iran.

Israel on the other hand has nothing but enemies around it..each one of them 100% committed to throw it into sea inshallah.

20

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Verizon: *
myvoice so you agree then that U.S Mid-East policy is lopsided and favors unconditionally (as you put it) Israel?
[/QUOTE]

I guess I was not clear enough. The US will support Israel's ** right to exist ** unconditionally. As to all other unrelated issues, you will NOT find unconditional support. I don't consider that lopsided.

Why it appears lopsided is that there really are d*mn few issues in the region that are not directly related somehow to Israel's right to exist. That's where I think the Palestinians and their Arab brothers and sisters have failed themselves miserably in helping the Palestinian people. Give up on the pipedream, mantra and agenda that Israel must be destroyed and everything else changes. Unfortunately, everything the Palestinians do is centered around the central philosophy held by far too many that Israel must not exist.

Philosophically speaking, few of us favor Israel building a wall and building settlements and having their troops occupy much of Palestinian territory.. But we won't say DON'T DO THAT or YOU CAN'T DO THAT so long as the Israelis have a credible argument that those things are required to guarnatee Israel's continued existence. Take that out of the equation and you won't have a wall and you won't have settlements and you won't have military occupation. If you think that is lopsided, so be it.