ok fine, screw military courts but?

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
21

Re: ok fine, screw military courts but?

You have coined a new term for terrorism, political crimes! Way to go apologeticism.

22

Re: ok fine, screw military courts but?

I have said it too, civilians failed to counter terrorism using judiciary for long, they had many chances to fix it but they failed. They even recently released Akram Lahori, Malik Ishaq, what else to show for failure of civilian courts? and this happened AFTER Peshawar incident when courts/civilian govts should've been more cautious about terrorists.

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Re: ok fine, screw military courts but?

I'm afraid that a very peculiar kind of fascism or let's say extreme right wing is emerging in Pakistan from a non bearded crowd. I wonder if Pakistan is on the path of becoming a sorry Orwellian state where people would be punished for thought crime? So much for loving democracy and freedom of speech more than the Mullahs.

I don't understand why in a country like Pakistan where two third of the population is classified as youth, the arm chair intellectuals are allowed to dumb down the masses with this 'no our system cannot be changed' nonsense which itself is a hallmark of defeatist attitude? Exactly why cannot the system be fixed? The system cannot be fixed or some people are just not bothered about fixing it or you like the people who are screwing so much that you don't want to say anything against them? When will we see an end to this nonsense that let the rotten system run (rot!) the way it is? I can't believe Pakistan's young and eager minds are being fed this rubbish. Usually the nations are built by telling its young the opposite.

The same old mentality of looking for quick, cosmetic solutions or just taking the good old taking the ostrich approach instead of addressing the root cause of issues. The civilian courts have failed on all fronts and they need to be fixed. Let people demand that. Simple as that. Just pointing at the elephant in the room does not necessarily mean opposition to military courts. The point is, if bunch of soldiers can set up up military courts in a blink of an eye, then there is absolutely no reason why judicial reforms for civilian courts cannot be discussed, tabled and run simultaneously. While the military tries to share civilian courts workload for two years, why can't this period be utilised to actually 'fix' the civilian courts. For that you need to have an open and honest debate on the failures of civilian courts.

The constant dumbing down of Pakistanis has to stop, let a proper debate on judicial reforms take place. Let Pakistanis identify and analyse and demand an action for laws in regards to witness protection, secret trials, data protection, political influence, media access to court rooms, staff training of court room administration etc. Why is it that a judge sits down with his law book wide open to punish someone under the act terrorism, but not a single witness turns up, what is he supposed to do on such occasion? A young journalist is murdered for putting a piece together on the land mafia, the six witnesses who were supposed to appear in the court to testify against his murderers are shot one by one in broad day light before the hearing? Are these issues concerning witness protection serious enough? Who is going to fix all this? So let people talk about how important is to bring proper witness protection laws and facilities in Pakistan.

Again, let Pakistani talk about all the ills of civilian courts and demand genuine solution. The military courts will be dismantled in two years, but the rotten empire of Pakistan's failed judiciary will still be standing. It has to be said, if the military courts managed to provide quick, speedy and effective trials and punishment (and I pray that do), the public may demand military courts to take up the cases of armed robberies and rape as well. They will be well within their rights to have such demand because justice matters at the end of the day, and when that time and demand comes, we'll perhaps witness the same people who are currently cheering for military courts now throwing fits about civilian supremacy, strengthening of institutions, democracy, constitution and what not.

PS: I'm in full favour of military courts. I hope they last longer than two years and I also hope their scope extends further then just combating religious terrorism. Good luck to them.

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Re: ok fine, screw military courts but?

^ then you're essentially asking for a military state. Just because it's the most efficient organization doesn't mean it needs to do Everyone else's job. For terrorism cases military courts might work but the whole point is that outsiders don't know what's going on. Knowing corruption over there, military courts could get misused to settle scores and deal with intra-party warfare. And no journalist could ever investigate the case.

Extending this to civil crimes can be dangerous. Rape? What happens when rape is done by a powerful politician with military connections ?

Judiciary has to be independent of the executive arm to work. It isn't working because like everyone else the judges are taking bribes too. They are greedy not to mention inefficient and also just stupid. Some of the cases I've seen I wonder what the judge is thinking. Uneducated masses dont allow for a good jury either.

Judges with bad track records should be sacked. Training of judges improved. Constitution should be worked on so that it's easier to interpret and execute. Where laws contradict Islamic values and have inconsistencies there should be reform. Strict punishments for obvious crimes like rape should exist and proving the crime shouldn't be so onerous.

And as for millions of cases stuck - make more courts and force judges to come up with fair judgements and don't allow for uncontrolled repeals by criminals. Once assumed guilty and its that obvious then you are Effin guilty. I've seen court cases stuck in our family and the judgement is obvious. Party A did not abide by agreement already set in writing between group A and B. So party A violated contract. Stipulations of violation already in contract. So why is it hard for the judge to honor the contract?? Easy case right? Except judge knows he will get killed if he delivers the correct judgement. Or his kid would get kidnapped. You know why Taliban did not have this problem? Because their executive arm was strong. They had guns and if someone was gonna eff around they'd haul the guy off to jail and he would die. He would get his head chopped off. People actually thought twice before pulling crimes. We don't have a strong justice system because the state is too weak to set its police force on criminals and it's easier for criminals to hide and escape.

So who wins? Honest judge or the thugs that get hired by Party A to rip apart judge if he doesn't deliver a corrupt verdict or delay a case? The thugs. Because the executive branch won't put these people away and execute them.

I'm glad they reinstated the death penalty. Honestly that is something these goons and thugs need - it's the only thing that might deter some of them.

25

Re: ok fine, screw military courts but?

And who is in charge of executive functions for past few decades? It's been PPP and PML taking turns. Essentially the buttos then sharifs then round we go again (except now change Bhutto to zardari). It's been a toss up between these two and everytime things get out of hand military has to take over to stabilize and then control goes back to these two families and round again we go. They could at least have reformed the police force and their friends could have stopped using the police for their personal vendettas. But no that's too hard. So you can't blame the judges for playing games with cases when they are threatened by the bad guys themselves.

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Re: ok fine, screw military courts but?

As if Pakistan isn't a defacto military state already?

Military is called in to do basic rescue work for earthquake to annual floods, set up relief camps for famine hit areas, run a long war in FATA, take care of IDPs, guard government buildings, deal with separatists, do operation clean up in Karachi, order a filing of an FIR for 17 murders and shooting, resolve political disputes, manage foreign policy and exit strategies. While military is doing all these things in so what if they're also running military courts to hang terrorist?

Military courts is a much needed and well deserved slap on the faces of those who were crying about civilian supremacy, supremacy of Pakistani laws and civilian courts, strengthening of institutions, democracy, constitution and keeping army in the barracks just few weeks ago when it suited their agenda. Of course, there was an option of building new special courts for secret trials or military taking control of witness protection or court's or judges security. There are hundred and one proposals to improve the existing judicial system in Pakistan. Secret terror trials are carried out everyday in Old Bailey, Pakistan also had this option but truth to be told, it is actually not in many Pakistanis' interest to put up a belligerent fight to transform the existing system. In simple terms, Military courts is yet another military experiment in the country and if it works, it works and Pakistan wins. If it doesn't, then let's all go back to ranting about democracy and supremacy of civilian institutions and blame military for every ill in the society. Fairweather have nothing to lose. Today the army is the ultimate saviour for them, tomorrow the same army will be pinned as the biggest enemy of the state.

Coming of military courts is such in your face 'when there is a will, there's a way message from the military to politicians. Unfortunately, politicians don't have that kind of will to kick start the system to let it run properly, nor anyone expects them to have that will. They just get the periodic 'popular vote' to simply rule the country in the name of democracy. It is so sad to see that people are more than happy to be absolutely intellectually paralysed by this defeatist rubbish that 'our system cannot be fixed so either shut up or put up with it'. It is height embarrassment and utter failure of judiciary that pathetic Supreme Court was sitting idle watching tamasha whilst the country was in the middle of profound political crisis and on a verge of civil war, yet it took COAS to come out and say dear politicians, stop fighting and go home. I will make sure your FIR for 17 murders is filed and I will also make sure your request for proper investigation into electoral rigging is conducted transparently, and we the soldiers will ensure that transparency of a completely civilian matter. What else was needed to pronounce the sheer incompetency of SC in such manner? In most civilised countries, judiciary is one of the pillars of the state. It keeps the government in check. Pakistan doesn't have that option. Forget about stetting up county tribunals to hear hearings on parking ticket fines, here judiciary cannot even be trusted to execute hard core terrorists who have killed hundreds of people.

So let the military courts come and let them be successful. Let them run speedy trials, provide quick justice and clear this mess so average Pakistani on the street can finally know what the real courts and justice should look like, so they can start demanding that from civilian courts. if military court can carry out speedy trials to punish terrorist, then why can't civilian courts do the same to punish murderers and rapists? Let people question that. Politicians aren't going to provide reformed judiciary on platter. Why would they?

27

Re: ok fine, screw military courts but?

This case should be sent to these courts
Musharraf indicted in Akbar Bugti murder case http://arynews.tv/en/musharraf-indicted-akbar-bugti-murder-case/ … via @arynewsofficial](https://twitter.com/ARYNEWSOFFICIAL)

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Re: ok fine, screw military courts but?

We are fighting a war against an enemy that can cross all limits to achieve its objective. This enemy is fighting against our state, our people. Why should we accord them right to defend themselves in a judicial system where common criminals are prosecuted. They are NOT Pakistanis. Should we prosecute war criminals in a civilian court?

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Re: ok fine, screw military courts but?

If Taliban are enemy , Their creators , protectors and beneficiaries have which relation with us . And be clear . They are Pakistanis . Surprisingly , No registered Afghan refugee was ever found involved in terrorism .

30

Re: ok fine, screw military courts but?

They have lost their right to citizenship when they took arms against the state.

31

Re: ok fine, screw military courts but?

No , They still have all rights of A Pakistani

32

Re: ok fine, screw military courts but?

^ advocating for taliban terrorists?

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Re: ok fine, screw military courts but?

No they are enemies but technically Pakistani.

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Re: ok fine, screw military courts but?

Ethnically may be Pakistani but not ethically. They should not be accorded proper judicial system meant for Pakistani civilians. should treated as war criminals

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Re: ok fine, screw military courts but?

here starts our mistake , they are not alone , families and relative , tribes and community
Justice with an enemy should be more clear so that could not spread hate

36

Re: ok fine, screw military courts but?

We should be that much careful with honorable enemy not with these disgraceful sorry souls.

37

Re: ok fine, screw military courts but?

That should include everyone who takes up arms against the state, including the ethnic groups.

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Re: ok fine, screw military courts but?

No they don't, they don't recognize Pakistan, they don't believe in constitution of Pakistan.

you just found yourself among Taliban apologists, shocked?

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ایسا کیوں نا کریں کے ہر ہفتے نمازِجمعہ کے باد پاکستان کے ہر شہر میں ایک کھلی کچہری لگایا کریں جہان ایک سرکاری اسکول کا ہیڈ ماسٹر دھشت گردوں کو مرغا بنا کر ان کی تشریف پر چار چھ ڈنڈے لگا کر سرکاری خرچے پر ان کو گھر چھوڑ کر آئے.
جج ملا اور حمائیتی سب خوش
داڑھی میں پوری جھاڑی ہے تنکا کیا ڈھونتے ہو.

40

Re: ok fine, screw military courts but?

It seems some people are trying to compare people spreading terrorism and killing using religion and sect same as other killings in Pakistan. Such comparison is absurd.

One should know that except outfits in the name of religion and sect (for whom military court is going to work), no terror group in Pakistan is terrorizing whole of Pakistan,doing suicide bombing and blowing government and private buildings throughout Pakistan, blowing markets and hospitals throughout Pakistan, blowing mosques and mazars throughout Pakistan, blowing schools and cinema houses throughout Pakistan, targeting cultural and recreational events throughout Pakistan (it is because of them, Pakistan is having no visitors to play cricket in Pakistan), killing innocent civilians (including women and children) and renowned personalities brutally throughout Pakistan, killing minorities and targeting their worship places throughout Pakistan, Blowing religious gatherings and processions throughout Pakistan, killing Pakistani government officials and army personals brutally throughout Pakistan, spreading terror by their suicide bombing and indiscriminate killing throughout Pakistan, and so on. Even people who have died are not safe from their fitna. Worse is that, they are not fighting for their rights or have demand for their uplift or independence (as they do not form majority anywhere anyhow), but they want to impose what they believe (their deviant sectarian beliefs) over other citizens of Pakistan using violence, killing, threats, terror, and suicide bombing.

Pakistan state is fighting them throughout Pakistan,and is using army against them. To have military court against these lowly terrorist animals to curb their fitna is right thing for state (Pakistan) to do, killing and hanging them what they deserve.