ok fine, screw military courts but?

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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we had a heated debate in the thread called toxic fazal…and you know what …fine, man liya, screw military courts but those who want to remove military courts should come up with a better alternative solution to try these animal TTPs…right?

if the suggestion is to strengthen existing civilian court system then janab sarkar, FYI there are over 3 million cases pending in courts across Pakistan. Yes sir, 3 million…in Punjab judiciary alone we have 1.1 million pending cases. so how in the world will these civilian courts prosecute these animals in a timely manner? they will sit in jail and network more and more or will be released on bail

second, how can you ignore the real danger to civilian judges, prosecutors and witnesses from these animals…these animal terrorists have attacks judges and witnesses time and again

the legal system that has failed to deliver so far on every front inclduing terrorism…so please enlighten us what is a a practical alternative to military courts to fix terrorism

thx in advance

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Re: ok fine, screw military courts but?

selective measures will bring no results. If this 6 words statement is understood, I don't have any issue with Military Courts. Insaaf hona chahiye.. Qazi Abdullah kare ya Hari Singh Chawla, it doesn't matter.

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Re: ok fine, screw military courts but?

everything in their control
Motorway to military courts
Pakistan Qauid e Azam nay banaia tha ya Ayoub Khan nay ?

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Re: ok fine, screw military courts but?

insaf to mullah umar bee kar raha tha in Afghanistan...

and sufi muhamamd and movi fazullallh in swat valley were also doing insaf...........

pls let me know if do you guys want that version of insaf....

and if so, fine we can remove military courts and let army fail

becasue once army fails, mullah omar and mlov fazullah will be taking over anyway to give us insaf on the name of sharia

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Re: ok fine, screw military courts but?

uncle will you ever answer the question instead of ayain bayain shayain

you are master of changing topics....i asked you a question in the opening post. please respond to it. what is the alternative of military courts...practical alternative

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Re: ok fine, screw military courts but?

Only difference between military and civilian courts is that military judges wont be under duress from politicians. And the act of allowing military courts for 'certain types of cases' clearly means that the ruling politicians want to keep majority of the cases with civilian courts, as they can commandeer them.
Setup of military courts is a feel good move, nothing else. Without the prospect of a long term impact, this move will rapidly become meaningless. It may result in 50-100 hangings over the next couple of years, but then what? These hangings will not discourage TTP or any other terrorist group. They after all, are already prepared to die.

The sheer number of cases sitting with Punjab and other courts is because of corruption and political pressure. And as I said before, ruling party has made sure that the segment of cases that require political pressure will remain with civilian courts.

Finally, witnesses will be the same, whether its a civilian court, or military court. So they will be exposed to the same dangers even in military courts. As for judges, they have more pressures from politicians than terrorists. And if at all there is a risk to their lives, then the concept of 'behind the scene judiciary' is not a novel concept. It has been practiced in many countries with success.

Is it a surprise that of all the hangings we have heard of so far since the ban was removed, almost all of them have been related to the 'attack on Gen. Musharraf'?

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Re: ok fine, screw military courts but?

so the alternative to military courts is? oh well, same old civilian courts who are releasing terrorists as we speak?..i mean really...

and if military courts can hang 50-100 terrorists a year, oh man that will be great. that is some progress. because civilian courts will not even prosecute one terrorist forget hanging.

and who cares if politically motivated cases do not end up in military courts. as long as these animal TTP terrorists as well as sectarian animals are prosecuted and hanged who cares about political cases.

judges will be protected under military courts and that is a big plus

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Re: ok fine, screw military courts but?

Can civilian courts not be told to expedite terrorism cases? Can judges not conduct cases via video link, or from behind screens, so as not to disclose their identities?
Isnt the govt essentially saying that our judicial system is broken, and we will not fix it. We will simply pass on the buck to the military? And if so, then isnt Altaf Hussain's assertion correct that 'might as well impose martial law in the country for 2 years'?

What kind of a sham democracy are we trying to run in Pakistan? And please dont say 'one step at a time/system chalnay do'. Our politicians have no interest in letting institutions develop and right themselves, whether its judiciary, or police, or NAB, or FIA. Ruling politicians have a deep rooted interest in keeping these institutions under their thumbs. The military courts decision was because of a severe reaction from the public. It will die out eventually, and we will be back to square one, and proponents of military courts will be left to rejoice on the 50 odd hangings they achieved out of the exercise.

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Re: ok fine, screw military courts but?

here is response sir jee

we have 3 million cases pending in the civilian courts...the civilian courts simply dont have extra staff plus will power to expedite the cases

but even if civilian courts somehow want to expatiate terrorism cases, they cant do it much faster..why? because in military courts the burden of proof falls on the accused, unlike in civilian courts where the state has to establish guilt beyond reasonable doubt. Many prosecution cases fail to meet this high standard, and hence the delays and the high acquittal rate....

Lets move on to your other questions...sure we can ask civilian judges to conduct behind screens but anyone can go to the civil court and give 200 rs to muharar as bribe and will get full info who is running the show....i am sure you know how the system works back home....by the way, this has been done by criminals in the past.

and yes govt is saying that our civil court system is broken...yes we have sham democracy....shd we fix it? sure but we dont have time to fix that system right now as WE HAVE A CRISIS BEYOND OUR IMAGINATION AND WE NEED TO ACT FAST. WE ARE FIGHTING FOR OUR SURVIVAL sarkar AND YOU ARE CONCERNED ABOUT SHAM DEMOCRACY RIGHT NOW?

thx

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Re: ok fine, screw military courts but?

There should be no politics of or about courts
However I already suggested a workable plan in another thread , but it is now too late
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/pakistan-affairs/651042-military-courts-5.html#post10220098

I can tell them an easy way , workable and productive , They can amend the law about anti-terrorist courts with setting up new special courts , appointing additional session judges with an immediate promotion , working in cantonment areas with all military staff and new prosecution teams under army control with some relax to army for evidence . It can work properly .

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Re: ok fine, screw military courts but?

^^ This is the problem exactly, our so-called educated and what not intellectuals have so far not seen the gravity of the situation. For them, it is like improve the judicial system and rest will be served!!! how? do these people want to terminate the constitution, because that is the only way when civil courts can act of Provisional Constitutional Order aka PCO, yes, then all basic rights shall be abolished and anyone can be prosecuted any where...

the next best possible scenario is, military courts, since we are in war, military courts are need of the hour... the Einsteins fails to tell us that Saholat Mirza is not hanged, the Ikram Lahori was released dramatically... yes because both were able to use the law of the land in their own benefit, there is reason that military courts are being established!!!

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Re: ok fine, screw military courts but?

Yes build a wall of China all around Pakistan and invade those ares which are safe heavens for these groups.
Make sure each and every grown up of Pakistan is educated enough and has a economic stake in Pakistan.
If people have nothing to lose and have no stakes in being a productive part of they society they can easily exploited for one reason or the other.

How can this be done? If Army can be used for building dams , rebuilding infrastructure after a natural disaster then they can be used for mass education and creating economic opportunities.

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Re: ok fine, screw military courts but?

There is nothing in military courts
Actual need is to stop corruption and strengthen democracy .

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Re: ok fine, screw military courts but?

This is the way to fight against terror
Only way , Public with democracy
Aah hamara mindset
https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/546235003005173760/NAosFzIp_bigger.jpeg
Umar Cheema‏@UmarCheema](https://twitter.com/UmarCheema1)This million march has given a verdict: France will not accept terrorism as its fait accompli.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B7FbTfuCUAAH6lh.jpg

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Re: ok fine, screw military courts but?

Military courts should stay, but, should try all cases of terrorism, whether ethnic, religious, sectarian or lingual.
The same arguments that apply to army courts regarding Taliban are also true of other terrorists. How many terrorists in Balochistan or Karachi have been convicted? Didn't Uzair Baloch get away with 100 murders without any conviction? Three to four thousand people are killed in Karachi yearly in target killing. How many killers are on death row?

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Re: ok fine, screw military courts but?

I agree. It should not just include TTP and people of that ilk. The jurisdiction of military courts should be extended to all acts of terrorism including political, ethnic and sectarian murders.

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Re: ok fine, screw military courts but?

Actually most of our honorable members don't have an idea and we locals are afraid ,
THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE IN ARMY AND OTHER INSTITUTIONS NOW A DAYS .

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Re: ok fine, screw military courts but?

I am afraid, adding political crimes into this list will open a Pandora box that will immediately compromise the unity and consensus that we need to fright against the war on terrorism. These military courts shd be focused on investigating suicide bombs, terrorism activities (Peshawar school, attacks on buildings etc) and sectarian violence but once you start bringing politically motivated crimes into this list it will be a **** show.

War on terrorism requires complete unity whereas politically motivated crimes or issues will have different voices and opinions and you don't want army to be dragged into it and therefore political crimes should be dealt in civilian courts. that is all. thx

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Re: ok fine, screw military courts but?

Civilian courts have far more staff than military courts. They dont lack in will power..they lack in 'orders from above'. Plus, its not like they are going to set up 5000 military courts to help. The number of military courts is going to be just a handful, and will only be looking at selective cases. It wont make a dent in the 3 million pending cases.

[quote]
but even if civilian courts somehow want to expatiate terrorism cases, they cant do it much faster..why? because in military courts the burden of proof falls on the accused, unlike in civilian courts where the state has to establish guilt beyond reasonable doubt. Many prosecution cases fail to meet this high standard, and hence the delays and the high acquittal rate....

[/quote]

It would be easier to pass legislation allowing for terrorism cases to be tried in civilian courts 'under military rules'...and make that a standing order, so it doesnt expire after 2 years. Anything can be done. The lack of will power lies with politicians.

[quote]
sure we can ask civilian judges to conduct behind screens but anyone can go to the civil court and give 200 rs to muharar as bribe and will get full info who is running the show.
[/quote]

Yes it happens, but just like the govt tried to send a message to terrorists by hanging several of them one after another over the past month, can they not do the same for similar criminals in the judicial system? If someone is found to have passed on information, fire them, take away their benefits and pension and make an example out of them. Why does that not ever happen?

[quote]
WE HAVE A CRISIS BEYOND OUR IMAGINATION AND WE NEED TO ACT FAST. WE ARE FIGHTING FOR OUR SURVIVAL sarkar AND YOU ARE CONCERNED ABOUT SHAM DEMOCRACY RIGHT NOW?
[/quote]

Ive been hearing this for the past decade or so. After every attack, 'we are fighting for our survival', assuming this is the worst ever.
We have been dealing with suicide bombings for more than a decade now. Dozens and dozens of women, children and adults have died due to terrorism over the years. As harsh as it sounds, and despite the fact that I come from a military family and love our army, this current backlash came out only because the victims involved were kids of armed forces personnel. The army pressurized the govt into taking these steps, and the govt has happily agreed to be called impotent, because at the end of the day, it is a sham democracy.
Such urgency on part of the govt comes only when there is a loaded gun on their temple...whether from the army (because of army related victims) or from foreign countries(because of foreigners involved).

And frankly, bottom line is not whether I agree with you on the setup of military courts or not. The bottom line is, will it bear fruit? Will it be a long term solution? Or is it just a stop gap-feel good measure? Will terrorists now think twice solely because now they somehow fear being tried in a military court after they get arrested?

And oh, 2 more terrorists hanged today....again, involved in the 'attack on Musharraf' (not in the murder of 17 others, just the attack on Musharraf).

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Re: ok fine, screw military courts but?

yeh uncle kisey kaha hay uncle :cobra:

hel yeh aor yeh hey :sunnyboy:

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