Re: Of graduates, fake degrees and national pride
^ you just have to get the facts together Sa1een. Even though I don't agree with your assessment, I think it is fine that you don't use India as a role model. That doesn't take away anything else that's been said about full representation
Re: Of graduates, fake degrees and national pride
^ you just have to get the facts together Sa1een. Even though I don't agree with your assessment, I think it is fine that you don't use India as a role model. That doesn't take away anything else that's been said about full representation
StirCrasy, I would not argue but believe me that when I claim something, regardless of I like it or not, I only claim (or write) if I know about it and I believe that what I know is true. If I find anything good about India (there are quite a few things though it is not Indian democracy), if I have to comment on it, I would not hesitate to accept it as good.
Re: Of graduates, fake degrees and national pride
^ no problem. All I'll say is that like in a marriage, expectations should not be unrealistic.
Re: Of graduates, fake degrees and national pride
well - the degree requirement couldn't stop natural born jaahils like Wasi Zafar, Sheikh Rashid and Kosuri from getting elected to the parliament. What good did it do to the awaam last time? better do away with this farcical requirement. It might save few hundred thousands ruppees that a few "over night" graduates had to spend to become eligible to contest elections.
Well good thing we don't consider your personal opinion to elect people. Anyone with education has a trillion better odds of leadership then a paindo/jahil/gawaar.
Re: Of graduates, fake degrees and national pride
"Iss mulk ka saattaya nas parhay likhay logo nay hi lagaya hia" - a common man's veiw in Pakistan.
Re: Of graduates, fake degrees and national pride
Common man is illiterate, FYI.
Re: Of graduates, fake degrees and national pride
Nice thread, and it's a hot topic these days. Can anyone tell me which other countries pose same condition (i.e. BA degree) on their people for contesting in the elections? I think Japan is the ONLY country where this condition is posed by the election commission. If you find no other country then i ask you simple question, why to put this condition in Pakistan?
Re: Of graduates, fake degrees and national pride
I am glad...
Now we are going to see the real face of democracy in Pakistan....Government of the people, for the people, by the people....
A country where literacy rate is less then 50% and there are only 2% graduates, why do you want to keep the rest of the 98% non-participant in this country's affairs??
Now there would be the true representatives coming from the rest(98%) of our illiterate people.
Re: Of graduates, fake degrees and national pride
it is an elitist idea, even if this country didnt have a low literay/graduation rate.
most graduates are from urban areas, and those from rural areas with the means to pursue graduation are likely going to belong to the affluent class any (which is already likely to have a stranglehold on power there). This virtually assures that people are not represented by someone who shares their concerns because he is someone like them.
besides it can be argued that people with experience of living in their localities are better lawmakers for that area than someone who shipped off to the city to get his education.
Re: Of graduates, fake degrees and national pride
it is an elitist idea, even if this country didnt have a low literay/graduation rate.
most graduates are from urban areas, and those from rural areas with the means to pursue graduation are likely going to belong to the affluent class any (which is already likely to have a stranglehold on power there). This virtually assures that people are not represented by someone who shares their concerns because he is someone like them.
besides it can be argued that people with experience of living in their localities are better lawmakers for that area than someone who shipped off to the city to get his education.
Brother, do you really think that having graduate as requirement or no requirement would make any difference in what class of people would come to the parliament?
Fact is that, whatever the requirement of contesting election, it would be same upper class of people who would come to the parliament until Pakistan social structure gets completely changed and that would take ages, that is especially true in Pakistan rural areas. In urban areas, graduation law does not make difference anyway as most of the time candidates are graduate anyhow.
Graduation law bars those intellectually deficient elite class of rural areas who are normally more powerful within the elite class of powerful Sardar and Zamindar families because of their rowdiness, cruelty, forceful and carefree behaviours (usually that is the reason they command power within their family and also do not get reasonable education as it is too much hard work for them). Further, graduation law ensures and bring forward intellectually capable elite class of rural areas who might not get into politics because of nature of politics and their cultured educated behaviour.
As for non-elites of rural areas, they have no chance in present Pakistani political system regardless of them having a degree or no degree.
Re: Of graduates, fake degrees and national pride
Brother, do you really think that having graduate as requirement or no requirement would make any difference in what class of people would come to the parliament?
Yes.
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Fact is that, whatever the requirement of contesting election, it would be same upper class of people who would come to the parliament until Pakistan social structure gets completely changed and that would take ages, that is especially true in Pakistan rural areas.
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One is an organic condition emerging from Pakistan's social structure in rural areas. Another is a state enforced exclusionary policy largely determined by whether or not the person had the means or even need to get a graduate level education.
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In urban areas, graduation law does not make difference anyway as most of the time candidates are graduate anyhow.
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Key word: most. And I disagree that is true in urban areas. The literacy rate (not graduation) in the cities of Pakistan is about 63% (of Karachi, and I am assuming thats one of the best in Pakistan). It probably is much lower in several other urban areas.
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Graduation law bars those intellectually deficient elite class of rural areas who are normally more powerful within the elite class of powerful Sardar and Zamindar families because of their rowdiness, cruelty, forceful and carefree behaviours
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If these intellectually deficient people are elected from their areas RESPECT the judgement of those people. You are not any more rightful to have a say in who represents them. All you should be concerned about is that intellectually deficient people are not elected by yourself.
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(usually that is the reason they command power within their family and also do not get reasonable education as it is too much hard work for them).
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Completely baseless.
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Further, graduation law ensures and bring forward intellectually capable elite class of rural areas who might not get into politics because of nature of politics and their cultured educated behaviour.
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Right, the previous assembly was very intellectually capable wasnt it? Please feel free to try to engineer an intellectually capable elite ruling class, but dont call that representative democracy.
Give parliament powers, and people will start holding it responsible for the way it uses its powers. Have the parliament meet once in three years to rubber stamp musharraf's latest power grabbing gimic and no matter who you put up in that auditorium, and no matter how shiny you make their degrees, it is an exercise in futility.
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As for non-elites of rural areas, they have no chance in present Pakistani political system regardless of them having a degree or no degree.
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I have lived in non-urban areas of Pakistan where that is not true.
Re: Of graduates, fake degrees and national pride
Brother, do you really think that having graduate as requirement or no requirement would make any difference in what class of people would come to the parliament?
No
Fact is that, whatever the requirement of contesting election, it would be same upper class of people who would come to the parliament until Pakistan social structure gets completely changed and that would take ages, that is especially true in Pakistan rural areas.
So true... Not only the culture needs to be changed , but also their thinking, approach and vision towards an ethical moderate society , who cares for their own people and won't keep them as their slaves around them.
In urban areas, graduation law does not make difference anyway as most of the time candidates are graduate anyhow.
Yes that's right...Especially you can't compare big cities of Karachi and Islamabad with that of rural areas,where people are kept uneducated by zamindars/waderas for their own good.
Graduation law bars those intellectually deficient elite class of rural areas who are normally more powerful within the elite class of powerful Sardar and Zamindar families because of their rowdiness, cruelty, forceful and carefree behaviours
Again how can this "rural elitist zamindari class" benefit, if they let their people educate ? Perhaps then they might turn over and represent this elitist class...toba toba, how can they let it happen ever??
(usually that is the reason they command power within their family and also do not get reasonable education as it is too much hard work for them).
So true.
Further, graduation law ensures and bring forward intellectually capable elite class of rural areas who might not get into politics because of nature of politics and their cultured educated behaviour.
That might not bring intellectually capable people but atleast make some people to go for higher education.
As for non-elites of rural areas, they have no chance in present Pakistani political system regardless of them having a degree or no degree.
I have lived in rural areas of Pakistan and this is true... A kissan is always kept a kammi/kumhar by his wadera saen or the zamindar mai baap.
Re: Of graduates, fake degrees and national pride
Faisal: Brother what do you expect? Seeing even many so-called educated Pakistanis, I can say that it was very unfair to have any qualifications for contesting election in Pakistan. I think that Pakistan should have no qualifications for judges and professors too. Well, looking at the way Pakistani lawyers do monkey dances on road and crook CJ get his incompetent son admitted in college then later find him top government job and for doing so become hero, education, honesty and hard work really do not matter in Pakistan.
Now in parliament we would have 372 maha-jahil angutha chaap khotays arguing and enacting laws for the Jahil 170 million khotay awams. Jahil awam kee qyadat Jahil hona hee chahiya. Actually it would be nice if we convert all Pakistani Universities into akharas. Here is 4 lines of Pakistani motto:
Parho gay likkho gay bano gay Zaleel Khaylo gay kudo gay bano gay Vazeer Parhai kee mahnat banatee hay Fakeer Looto mulk ko kay zindagee hay Qaleel
Does all this rant include parhay likhay jahil who support MQM?
Re: Of graduates, fake degrees and national pride
Yes graduation (from a good institution) or atleast good schooling should be a must for would-be legislators. Even with this condition of graduation jokers and classless gunwaars like Wasi Zafar, PE and Ch. Shujaat etc. manage to squeeze in. Just imagine what kind of khaleefas and dhuggas would be contesting the election if we do away with this condition. The parliament would not look any better than a fish market. I am totally with Mush on this one
Ideally it should also come with another requirement.
There is a big big difference for instance between doing your MBBS from KEMC, AMC or Agha Khan and from an ordinary medical college like Chandka medical college
case closed..
Re: Of graduates, fake degrees and national pride
Wah, so narrow the pool down to people who got accepted into/paid their way throug one of the VERY VERY few good universities in Pakistan.
It is a silly idea. Sell me on this one please. Someone answer me, concisely, why graduation is a condition for holding public office. You understand that the leader we all idealise (and the stellar few who followed him), the leader who's way of life and governance is cited in the foundation of our constitution, would be barred from governing Pakistan?
Re: Of graduates, fake degrees and national pride
ok atleast good schooling should be a must IMO.
Re: Of graduates, fake degrees and national pride
so in the hypothetical case where there are no "good" schools in the neighbourhood (having spent 4 years in a small town in NWFP i know that is not a far fetched idea), what is your solution?
Re: Of graduates, fake degrees and national pride
Does all this rant include parhay likhay jahil who support MQM?
Does all this include parhay likhay jahil who support Punjabi Qaumi Movement(PQM = PML(N) )
Re: Of graduates, fake degrees and national pride
I am not suggesting that people who do not go to good schools cannot be successful in life. With hard work and dedication some of them do manage to get into the top universities and colleges of Pakistan and if anything do even better than the ones who were literally spoon fed. But we need to have a certain standard for people willing to contest the election and literally deciding our destiny. Without the condition of good education anyone with money, even a kiryana farosh would get into politics, do we really want to see that?
John Major (I believe) and Winston Churchill for instance were not graduates but since the standard of education is generally so high in England, it did not matter for them.
Re: Of graduates, fake degrees and national pride
May be you should ask Sa1eem as he is the poster but I believe those were his primary targets.