Of graduates, fake degrees and national pride

Its a special day, when you Google news about ‘Pakistan’ and the first hit basically says that now any ujjaDh jaahil (completely illeterate) person can become leader of our beloved motherland… Yayy!!! Another step forward in getting good and educated leadership for the country.

None of us are silly. We all know why getting rid of this “nuisance” was important. I hope Gilani’s family did not sell their own furniture and made long term plans to move into the mehal (palace) of Prime Minister. (Hint hint: “Asif Zardari Aawayy hee aawayyyyyyyyyyy!”)

Anyway, do you think it was a smart idea to have condition of “graduation” for people contesting an election? Were people abusing it anyway? With fake degrees or deeni madrasah equivalents. Or did it ensure that the old uneducated buffoons give way to their educated children to come forward (I mean, the ‘seat’ will remain in the family, of course).

ps. Dogar sahab trying desperately to save his own “kursi”. Wallah o Aalim :slight_smile:

Re: Of graduates, fake degrees and national pride

well - the degree requirement couldn't stop natural born jaahils like Wasi Zafar, Sheikh Rashid and Kosuri from getting elected to the parliament. What good did it do to the awaam last time? better do away with this farcical requirement. It might save few hundred thousands ruppees that a few "over night" graduates had to spend to become eligible to contest elections.

Re: Of graduates, fake degrees and national pride

Faisal: Brother what do you expect? Seeing even many so-called educated Pakistanis, I can say that it was very unfair to have any qualifications for contesting election in Pakistan. I think that Pakistan should have no qualifications for judges and professors too. Well, looking at the way Pakistani lawyers do monkey dances on road and crook CJ get his incompetent son admitted in college then later find him top government job and for doing so become hero, education, honesty and hard work really do not matter in Pakistan.

Now in parliament we would have 372 maha-jahil angutha chaap khotays arguing and enacting laws for the Jahil 170 million khotay awams. Jahil awam kee qyadat Jahil hona hee chahiya. Actually it would be nice if we convert all Pakistani Universities into akharas. Here is 4 lines of Pakistani motto:

Parho gay likkho gay bano gay Zaleel
Khaylo gay kudo gay bano gay Vazeer
Parhai kee mahnat banatee hay Fakeer
Looto mulk ko kay zindagee hay Qaleel

Re: Of graduates, fake degrees and national pride

This is excellent news. If it is true that Great Zardari does not have a degree, then this should certainly help him. He would make a great PM - infact I am sure he will make the 'greatest' PM in Pakistan history.

Also, the removal of graduate clause will allow many other PPP workers to put their names in the hat for being a Parliamentary candidate. This is great news for Pakistan.

Re: Of graduates, fake degrees and national pride

a non-Pakistani view:

Imposing a college degree requirement is unfair. In addition to taking away the opportunity to serve from a lot of people, it assumes that a mere college degree will somehow ensure quality (and that those without such a degree are useless).

Re: Of graduates, fake degrees and national pride

Obviously, PPP does not have sole monopoly in fielding jaahil candidates. In fact many religious parties are set to gain from this, since many of their candidates are graduates of deeni madrassahs, and often find it difficult to get equivalency certificates.

Mushy inserted this clause mostly to embarass jaahil politicians, though ironically the first high profile "victim" of jaali degree syndicate was none other than Mushy's own favorite Dr Aamir Liaqat Husain almarouf Dramay-baaz Moulvi. Ah! life is so unfair.

Re: Of graduates, fake degrees and national pride

Faisal bhaijan. Jaali degrees are two to a penny in Pakistan. It is great news that the new Parliamentarians do not have to go wasting their time and money in finding forgers. I have heard Pakistani forgers are the best.

Re: Of graduates, fake degrees and national pride

Degree does not mean that a person knows the subject well or should work in the subject a person done his/her degree. Degree is training and once trained by getting degree a person achieves certain level of quality. It is a sign that a person value education, could go through exam pressures, have ability to think and can put thoughts on paper such that others can understand (express themselves), have enough intelligence to understand and solve complicated problems, can argue with some degree of knowledge and logic ... and so on. [Though it does not mean all do acquire these qualities, but best students do, and in the end that is what training is all about, some get maximum out of it and some achieve just enough, while some could stay 'kora kay kora' even after getting all education and training].

Even amongst uneducated masses, they naturally choose a person to lead them who has education, as all accept and expect that an educated person would be able to lead most appropriately and effectively.

Only people with money can normally contest election in third world and if a person that contest election do not have degree, it shows that the person even when that person has money and opportunity to get education, do not care about education or finds difficulty in learning, understanding and knowing stuff or do not want to work hard to learn. It is pathetic that such person should lead a country neither such person is expected to lead nation properly, in right direction with wisdom and knowledge.

University degree in western world is becoming silent requirement for almost all jobs. Many countries are trying to make degree a mandatory requirement in life of their citizen.

If a country has to develop and get progress then I believe that a degree for parliamentarians should be essential so that people in parliament can think, analyse and with their knowledge, hard work and ability to learn, could come with best solution to the problem a country faces.

Actually, it does not mean that someone with degree only has ability, but degree is just a documentary proof of a level of ability. A person may not get opportunity to do a degree but it is possible that his learning, experiences, and life achievements could be such that the person might have trained himself and gained ability much better than a graduate, as that ability is important. But that is exceptional and thus if a country really wants to get developed then quality representation for a country in parliament is essential and that means to have requirement of University degree.

Re: Of graduates, fake degrees and national pride

Do you have a representative democracy or not? Why mimic the west which does not have 50%+ effective 'illiteracy' (in quotes for a reason)

Re: Of graduates, fake degrees and national pride

A basic question here is, and this is just theoretical, shouldn't the people make the decision whether a person is capable of representing them (regardless of education etc), rather than a puny little rule added by a non-representative dictator?

I have nothing against graduates, of course :) but looking at the number of graduates in Pakistan vis a vis total population, this certainly has the potential to exclude a huge majority of our people from ever getting into the leadership positions. I do agree that to expect an illiterate person trying to fine-tune complex legal arguments on constitutional amendments is a giant task. I do also agree that by asking a largely illeterate populace to decide on other illiterate candidates may not seem like the brightest idea either. :)

But, as they say, at the end of the day, a nation gets the leaders it deserves. Pakistan zinda bad.

Re: Of graduates, fake degrees and national pride

Faisal, the Supreme Court did the right thing at the wrong time. If it's a democratic society if we're after it shouldnt matter if you've got PhDs or you only know your ABCs. The problem is the timing of this annoucement makes it look like Zardari "requested" a law be changed to suit his personal needs.

Re: Of graduates, fake degrees and national pride

What representative democracy? You mean big landlords with 1000s of acre agricultural lands and multi-millionaire industrialists whose dining tables are always full and who run about on posh cars representing poor farmers and factory workers who finds difficulty in getting one meal a day and travel hanging on full to brim rundown busses?

If this is the representative democracy you are talking about than 'yes', we in Pakistan have such absurd and sham democracy where unequal represents down trodden and oppressed equals.

We have democracy where 99.99 percent of people could not contest election because first of all they would not be able to afford contesting election (it could cost around Rs 50 million plus lot of influences and gunddas backing) but even if they could, if they would dare to contest, they would reach grave before election date, not because they may challenge anyone in election but because they dared to stand in front of those privileged few who could contest election.

[Pakistan has 2.5 million plus graduates but those who are eligible to contest election (graduates or no-graduates) as they have required qualifications (money, family background, gunnda backing, influences, etc) are probably 0.1 million or less].

Re: Of graduates, fake degrees and national pride

We should understand that graduation requirement does not bar anyone from contesting election. It only put a condition that anyone can achieve. It is just like age of voter is 18 years.

If underage cannot vote then it does not mean that those who are underage cannot be voter. Their requirement is to get to the age (18 years) and vote. If they die before getting to the age, they do not vote.

Same way a person can contest election if they do not have a degree as they can qualify themselves by getting degree, so they are not barred. If a person who wants to contest election could not spend few years to get a degree then it shows that the person do not care to educate for qualification and contesting election and if that person do not have ability to graduate then the person is complete idiot. In both cases the person do not deserve to be in parliament.

Re: Of graduates, fake degrees and national pride

While I can see a benefit in making sure that all people running for elected office can read and write (since they will be doing a lot of reading of legislative agenda etc), I am still not convinced putting a requirement for them to have a BA or graduation is not disenfranchising a significant part of our population. Why BA? Why not FA or Matric or even 5th grade? I am just asking.... :)

Re: Of graduates, fake degrees and national pride

Yaar, aap kee bhie kiya aala sonch hay :). What you think? is job of parliamentarians just reading and writing? Though even for that we need someone who is educated enough that they could read and write :). Well, job of parliamentarians are not just reading and writing but they should be able to understand complicated documents related to all sorts of complicated stuff from foreign policies and relations, legislature, economics, agriculture, industries, taxes, human problems, social and cultural requirements and problems of different parts in country ... etc. They are the people who enact all laws of the country and for that they should be able to understand laws.

They do get some briefings but they can only understand if they have knowledge, ability to understand and education. If they would have no education then they could not do anything other than destroying the country and taking it to ruins.

When a country has uneducated Jahils in parliament, these parliamentarians only do corruption and let the bureaucracy do everything as bureaucracy likes, plus these parliamentarians depend for everything on others around them who not only exploit these parliamentarians but exploit the country too, that results in mismanagement and mega corruptions.

Re: Of graduates, fake degrees and national pride

The people are the judge, there is no criterian that can filter good candidate. There will always a way around to any kind of requirements.

so....

jese log wese haakim.

I will say it for pathetillionth time, cut the millitary crap budge to 50% and spend it on education for next two decades. Say hello to all the neighbours and do not interfere in anyone's matter, no need of ISI or military of this scale. Once people get education, job opertunities and prospariety, there will be no ch000 in parliment, bhutto lovers will not be voting for murderers like Zardariz, middle class teenagers of Karachi will not be listening to that black bafoon, Punjab will not be fooled again by corrupt not so sharief biraderaan, tribal issues will be resolved with decent talks and goodwill from both sides, Mullahs will not be able to fool tender minds, guarenteed no one be willing to blow himself, not a single person. Parasites like Mush, Zia, Sahabzada Yaqoob, Wasi Zafar, Malik Qayuum, Peerzaada and Qasoori will be beaten by their own wives and children. They will not have courage to go out in public.

Now when I say such truth, I get warnings and post removal. Ravage do it one more time please.

Re: Of graduates, fake degrees and national pride

Sa1eem:

I hear you and as you know we in India are not 'that' different when it comes to voting and elections. Instead of feudal lords we have a coterie of other vote bankers - in some states movie stars, in some states caste leaders, just plain intimidation rowdies in others. But that is what our population is. And representative democracy works in most parts. Sometimes one faction pulls too far but over time it balances out.

It has nothing to do with intelligence, education or even culture.

When you do that a sense of fairplay takes root
That over time brings relative stability
Stability breeds development

The alternatives clearly don't work. Because power corrupts.

Re: Of graduates, fake degrees and national pride


Well, you are talking about a dream world, where Parliamentarians are men and women of wisdom, courage and vision. Life-time patriots who have devoted their lives to betterment of their people. You are thinking of a place, where most people are educated. Fascinating stuff, I must say.

Now, lets get back to reality. This is Pakistan. If a person says that "I am bringing a life-time of experience in public service with me" (sorry, for borrowing a crap line from Clinton propaganda machine), does it matter if that person does not have a degree to show that Mian Channo College awarded him a BA? What about his (or her) knowledge of the issues, astuteness of the situation and oratory skills to convince people? Should all that be put on hold, because s/he is not a BA?

Urmmm..... sticky. skicky.

Re: Of graduates, fake degrees and national pride

I know what you mean. I am sorry to say but problem is that I do not believe that India is a good example of development and people's well being. What I know and if you do not agree then try to find it out from unbiased reports (for your own good and knowledge), that India with respect to Pakistan was much better economically in 1947 and people in India were much better provided. I am sorry to say but situation has changed a lot since then because what India had in the name of democracy was (and is) not democracy but anarchy full of nepotism, racialism, sectarianism, exploitations and selfish rules.

If I have choice between how people got governed in India and how people got governed in Pakistan, leaving few periods full of corruption, nepotism and mishaps, I would prefer what Pakistan went through during last 60 years. Regardless of all wrongs, government in Pakistan has done much more for the poor in Pakistan then what India did for poor of India.

Re: Of graduates, fake degrees and national pride

Graduate does not mean anything but a document that shows that a person has some ability and is not completely Jahil. Now give me good reason why that person you mentioned is not a graduate? :)

Obviously a person of such ability could spend few years to get a degree just to fulfil requirements, a requirement that may not be there to bar such person but is there to bar completely Jahil-e-Mutlaq.

Well, can you tell me that if suppose we have 342 person in parliament who are completely Jahil (could not even read or write), as that is a remote possibility when there is no condition of education to become parliamentarian, than what could you expect from such people to do anything for the country?