Occupied Palestine...

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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Re: Occupied Palestine...

As a physician trained at some of the US's leading institutions, I am in all likelihood more aware of what is and isn't present in university micro labs than you will ever be, so kindly spare me the juvenile attitude.

Moreover, I am also aware that those shipments were sent to the Ministry of Education, and of course, the Iraqi Atomic Energy Commission. Given the US's record in the region, I hardly think its a stretch to believe that American government approved those shipments knowing full well what what they were ultimately going to be used for...what did you want them to do, send the samples directly to an Iraqi weapons laboratory? I never claimed that the US directly handed over weapons...but to claim that the US unwittingly sold hundreds of millions of dollars worth of dual use supplies to Iraq, without any knowledge of what they would ultimately be used for, is nothing short of laughable.

Just out of curiosity...how do you explain the allegations that the CIA authorized sales of weapons (such as cluster bombs) to Iraq through third country intermediaries, as claimed by Howard Teicher. Or do you just believe that the US government is completely open in its dealings, and entirely incapable of subterfuge?

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Did you see those graphs? The USSR gave every weapon imaginable to Iraq, they lacked for nothing. Russia had reliable cluster munitions, and they had already sold $55bln in weapons to Iraq. The US later sold dual use technologies such as computerized routers, and laser cutter which could have been used in Iraq’s nuclear program, but the vast majority of export controls by the US worked quite well.

If you look at the table of suppliers for the chemical components, you will see no lack of ready suppliers. The simple answer is that Iraq was a Soviet proxy state, and a vast weapons storehouse was available though the USSR, Eastern Europe proxy states and other uncontrolled means.

But, just for your consideration, and to completely blow up your “it’s a well known fact” theory, let’s look at how Saddam was financed. Surely if the US was hip deep with Saddam, we would have been loaning him money right?

Wrong.

The following table shows that Iraq owed a total debt of between $120bn and $135bn. The total amount loaned Iraq by the US was $2.2bn, in US Agricultural Grain credits. Wow.
http://www.jubileeiraq.org/debt_today.htm

You know, at one point it was pointed out here that Saddam’s men tortured their political opponents by taking a common construction drill and bit, supplied through a UK company and repeatedly drilled holes through a mans hand during interrogation.
Some Bozo here was actually arrogant enough to suggest that the UK should stop exporting drills to Iraq, knowing what they might be used for…

My point to all this? Guppies here think they “know” all about who to blame for things in the world. If they can possibly find a link to US culpability they gleefully dance around and point fingers. The same with Israel. We have become the universal excuse for failure in the Muslim world.

And frankly, what no one will admit? That the Palestinians, and their leadership have lost. They really screwed up. They cannot win at major wars, they cannot win at diplomacy, they cannot win at insurgency. They are refugees in their own country.

And doctor, I will kindly spare you the juvenile attitude when you do us all the favor of a bit of unbiased research before spouting opinions on topics you know little about. Surely they taught you that at a leading institution?

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:offtopic:

Back to Occupied Palestine …please

Susrali Iftar Party today
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Comparing drill bits to industrial chemicals and lethal pathogens in ridiculous & sophistic. By that logic, the US shouldn't have any problem selling uranium to Libya...as long as they promise to use it exclusively for 'academic research.'

And as far as 'targeting the US' is concerned...the idea that the sociopolitical situation in the Middle East and the Muslim would exists in a vacuum, without any influence from the essentially neocolonial forces of the Western world is absurd. Yes, some of the problems are no doubt self inflicted, but to claim that the US, or the UK, or Russia, or Israel are free of blame is ridiculous. The fact of the matter is that the Western involvement has been anything but benign in these countries.

Moreover, considering some of bigoted comments you've made in the past few posts, I think its absurd for you to be accusing anyone of being biased. Pot, meet kettle.

2 Likes
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Re: Occupied Palestine...

eNo one is suggesting UK, Russia, neocolonial forces of the Wesern world or even he US have not influenced the sociopolitical situation in the ME. You don't need a PhD to realize that since they created a lot of these countries less than 100 years ago they might have had a little influence. It sure isn't any type of retort to the fact that French, Chinese, etc (and NOT the US) funded Iraq during Saddams's reign of terror.

But, c'mon... how long can we blame others before we start to pull ourselves by the bootstraps? Until Muslims move beyond "some of the problems are no doubt self inflicted" to "we have some problems we need to address before we can take control of our destiny" this is going be the same ol' song and dance for a while.

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Oho…I forgot…The US never knew there was a country named Iraq fighting Iran…So how could the US supply any weapons to a country that never existed…Of course…Current and latest American IAE suggests that until 1991 there was no country named Iraq…Iraq never bought American made weapons and US never supplied to Iraq…How could it…There was no country named Iraq before 1991…

That absolves the US of supplying Iraq with any weapons of any sort…

Such noble aspirations…Wonder of you have a halo shining behind your angelic face…

It just distorts the image when you hear that Pol Pot murdered almost 2.5 million people while the US looked on…What happened then OG…Where was ‘Operation Cambodian Freedom’ then?

And where was ‘Operation Jenin Rescue’ when thousands of refugees were slaughtered by the Zionists?

Here’s something that will hopefully make you search your soul…

http://www.revisionisthistory.org/palestine54.html

Where’s the investigation?

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I've already pointed out how absurd of a claim I consider that. Perhaps if governments never lied, and openly disclosed all of their actions, you might have had a point.

You might as well claim that Iran Contra never happened, because the US officially had sanctions against Iran.

And again, how is the Muslim world supposed to 'pull itself up by the bootstraps' when every other Muslim country is ruled over by a Western-backed despot? The fact is, at this point in time, it really isn't in the West's interest for the Muslim world to 'pull itself up'...Iran and Turkey are probably the only two Middle Eastern countries where a truly democratic government would be remotely favorable to Western interests.

How, pray tell, are people to 'take control of their destiny' when the world's superpowers are doing everything in their power to ensure that the Mubaraks and Sauds stay in control?

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** Thousands?** Are you SURE?

Just so you know, here is the final report of the Secretary General of the UN

F. Recent events in Jenin

      **Introduction**
      
      43. In the early hours of 3 April 2002, as part of Operation Defensive            Shield, the Israeli Defence Forces entered the city of Jenin and the            refugee camp adjacent to it, declared them a closed military area, prevented            all access, and imposed a round-the-clock curfew. By the time of the            IDF withdrawal and the lifting of the curfew on 18 April,** at least 52            Palestinians, of whom up to half may have been civilians, and 23 Israeli            soldiers were dead. **Many more were injured. Approximately 150 buildings            had been destroyed and many others were rendered structurally unsound.            Four hundred and fifty families were rendered homeless. The cost of            the destruction of property is estimated at approximately $27 million.

http://www.un.org/peace/jenin/

Another Muslim Urban Myth busted…

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You're right...the Qana massacre of 1996 is a better example of Israel's high regard for human rights.

I'm sure you're familiar...IDF bombs the living bejesus out of a UN compound in southern Lebanon where over 800 civilians had taken refuge, killing over 100, and maiming even more...a move that was universally denounced by human rights organizations as a violation of international humanitarian law, and contrary to Israel's claims, determined by the UN to have most likely been caused by intentional targeting of the UN compound.

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I never understood why Israel bombed in south Lebanon in the early 1990s when I lived in Beirut; killing many civilians including kids in the process. Of course that news was buried in the Western media; no calls for investigation either.

But when the chosen do it, it's okay.

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Jeez, do you guys think we are idiots? Here is a section of the Human Rights Watch report.

In south Lebanon, one of the most relevant rules in the context of the guerrillas’ military operations is the one that requires their forces "to the maximum extent feasible…avoid locating military objectives within or near densely populated areas."7 This rule clearly encompasses the positioning of mortars and Katyusha rocket launchers within or in close proximity to concentrations of civilians, including displaced civilians sheltered on U.N. bases.
Because it positioned and launched rockets and mortar shells from sites close to the Qana base on April 18, Lebanese guerrilla forces also bear responsibility for the civilian casualties caused by the massive Israeli retaliatory fire. The burden is on the guerrillas to explain the military necessity that required its forces to carry out militaryoperations at these specific locations in such close proximity to a large number of civilians, particularly given their long experience with the predictability of Israeli counterfire in such circumstances. The rules of customary international humanitarian law require all parties to a conflict to take constant care to spare civilians in the conduct of military operations. In the days and hours leading up to the Qana massacre, the guerrillas exhibited a willful disregard for the safety of the civilian population.

Brilliant, simply brilliant.

Israel is a superior military force. I fail to see how incidents such as these, and Jenin, which was precipitated by the launching of suicide bombers, advances the cause of the Palestinians. The Israeli economy is more than robust, their technological capability is excellent, while the Palestinians are living in abject poverty which gets worse daily. What precisely do you think can be gained? This victimology is a losing game. The Arabs have all but abandoned the Palestinians. The only friends they have are Hezbullah and Iran, who respect their right to kill a few Jews for cheap money. Palestinians are Muslim cannon fodder, nothing more at this point. If you cared for them you would make their lives better, not worse.

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Yes, no one can match Israel's brilliance when it comes to bombing little children. And no one can also match the lame excuses given for killing children.

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Since when Isralis have cowardly suicided little children, men, women etc. ? That kind of primitive behavior rests with tribal Muslims. Sorry to say that!

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Fear not, Hezbullah is trying hard to keep up. From the same HRW report:

Ninety of the 639 Katyusha rockets fired into Israel landed in the vicinity of the northern Israeli city of Kiryat Shmona, fifty-eight of them in the city proper, all causing injury or property damage, according to Israeli sources interviewed by Human Rights Watch. The three serious Israeli civilian casualties during the conflict were all residents of Kiryat Shmona.
There were direct hits on eleven houses in Kiryat Shmona, and seven of them sustained heavy damage. Two of the homes were totally destroyed, and two were completely destroyed by fires ignited when the Katyushas exploded. Another 250 homes were moderately damaged, and 1,757 were lightly damaged. Most structures that were not directly hit by rockets were damaged by shrapnel. Some 2,018 homes were damaged in the city, out of a total of 5,800 homes. The area of the Havradim housing development alone, home to 2,100 people, was hit eight times. Three hundred factories and manufacturing plants were also damaged, seven of them badly. Most of these buildings were located within the city’s industrial zone, where rockets fell on April 19, April 23, and April 26.
Particularly at the beginning of Operation Grapes of Wrath, the **Katyusha attacks appeared timed to yield maximum casualties: rockets were fired in the early morning, when civilians set out for work and school, and in the evening when residents returned home. **But residents of the north told Human Rights Watch that after the first three days, the rocket fire became more sporadic. “Once they knew we were in the shelters, they fired at all hours to keep us guessing,” said one resident of Kiryat Shmona. “This made it impossible to know when it might be safe to come out.” The Katyushas typically were fired in volleys of between two to seven at a time. On April 16, for example, six rockets landed in a Kiryat Shmona neighborhood at the same time. The next day, pairs of rockets rained on different parts of the city throughout the day. “It’s a war of nerves,” another resident said. "You never know where orThe rocket attacks terrorized the civilian population in northern Israel, and forced the displacement of tens of thousands of residents. Katyushas are inaccurate weapons with an indiscriminate effect when fired into areas where civilians are concentrated. The use of such weapons in this manner is a blatant violation of international humanitarian law. In addition, when guerrillas fired the rockets in reprisal for attacks by Israeli military forces that killed or injured Lebanese civilians, they committed another grave violation of the laws of war.6

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Check grammar and post of which you are replying to, my friend, then come back.

Timepass - (Ramzan Mubarak also)
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Seminole, come on!
Lets not compare dead figures with other regimes, governments.
Otherwise US of A will beat them all by some margin!

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Aobl, unfortunately your blind hate for arabs is too extreme, therefore you dont even recognize the targeted killings of Palestinians by Israel.

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Please make me understand where in this thread is any proof of USA NOT supporting Saddam and his regime.

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Lovely use of selective quotations. I especially liked how you literally ignored the portions of the report that state in no uncertain terms that the Israelis were acting in violation of international humanitarian law, as well as the parts that discuss the “indiscriminate and unlawful” attacks on medical services, and UN peacekeepers.

Let’s quote from the Amnesty International report now, shall we?

On the basis of all the information available, Amnesty International believes that the IDF intentionally attacked the UN compound, although the motives for doing so remain unclear. The IDF have failed to substantiate their claim that the attack was a mistake. *Even if they were to do so they would still bear responsibility for killing so many civilians by taking the risk to launch an attack so close to the UN compound.
*
It is also clear, based on the available information, that *Hizbullah combatants fired a mortar from a position within 200 metres of the periphery of the UN compound. All indications are that they were firing at an IDF patrol who had infiltrated north of the security zone and had apparently been laying mines. The intention of the Hizbullah combatants in choosing that location for the mortar is unclear; it might have been to shield themselves against an IDF counter-attack in the belief that the UN compound would be too close for the IDF to respond. Even if this was not the intention of the Hizbullah combatants, by taking up positions where they did they clearly were reckless as to the consequences this might have for the civilians in the immediate area. In either case, this is a clear breach of the laws of wars prohibitions on using the civilian population as a shield. However, Hizbullahs *action in no way justifies the IDF attack on the compound.

**The Israeli authorities further argue that they have a right to respond to attacks and that if civilians are killed it is because *Hizbullah *is using them as a shield. However, when Protocol 1 was drafted, those involved, including military experts from many countries, were fully aware of the need to balance the protection of civilians against the demands of military necessity. To allow an armed force carte blanche to attack without regard for civilian lives simply on the basis that the civilians in question are being used as shields, would undermine efforts to protect them. For this reason, while prohibiting shielding tactics, international law also makes clear that use of such tactics does not provide the other side with a licence to kill civilians. Article 50(3) of Protocol 1 provides:

The presence within the civilian population of individuals who do not come within the definition of civilians does not deprive the population of its civilian character.

Furthermore, Article 51(8) makes clear that even if one side is shielding itself behind civilians, such a violation of international law does not release the Parties to the conflict from their legal obligations with respect to the civilian population and civilians, including the obligation to take precautionary measures provided for in Article 57. Such measures include refraining from launching an attack, and even cancelling an attack in progress, if such an attack may be expected to cause disproportionate loss of civilian life, and giving advance warning of an attack.
http://asiapacific.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE150421996?open&of=ENG-2D2

No one is absolving Hezbollah of using human shields. But to claim that it’s any sort of justification for blowing up a UN compound teeming with civilians is nothing short of morally bankrupt. Even the Israeli government knew that…which is why they (and the US, of course) denied that the attack was even done intentionally.

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Had Hizbullah not tried the exact same trick years later, perhaps I would give them a little credit.

I am under no illusions about the Israelis, they are nasty fighters in a nasty neighborhood. What I rail against is selective outrage, and the theory that if Israels enemies create mythical attrocities that somehow that creates a "win". After all, we just heard how "thousands" were killed in Jenin.

I am certain you know about the Syrian town of Hama? This rebellious city challenged the Syrian army. The army surrounded the city and bombarded it for days. The estimate was 25,000 killed, mostly civilians. Yet if you ask any Muslim the worst massacre was Sabra and Shatilla, which in terms of raw numbers can't even hold a candle to Hama. In fact in the 6 years I have visited here, it has never been brought up by a Muslim. The invisibility of Muslim on Muslim violence is stunning in comparison to the microscope the Jews operate under.