Obligatory Prayers : 3 or 5 ?

Society Religion & Philosophy
21

Re: Wuzu (Wudu - whatever)

what are you on about man? why does "something is amiss" follow from the first two statements? completion or perfection needs a criterion, in what light are you gauging completion or perfectness?

it is a silly discussion if we dont even define what these words mean to each of us. Do you mean to say that completeness is only possible if every detail is specified? That is a nonsensical criterion, which would invalidate any Christian prayer because I could say oh look Bible doesnt say the priest should kneel like that! The Quran says be kind to Parents, so should I wonder if its complete because it doesnt help me decide whether I should be kind to my mother by letting her have the sweet dish she is craving now, or if I should keep it from her for her health?

22

Re: Wuzu (Wudu - whatever)


When a group boasts of the last, great, accurate, protected, complete word of God and that they follow the words and command of God and then make a whole list of things necessary to be a legitimate follower of that religion, book and God, something is amiss. As far as I can figure, either the claim of the completion and perfection of the book is wrong (which I doubt since that is the foundation of Islam), or the historical interpretation that has allowed dogmatic practices (that were not part of God's word) to creep into the religion are not required. Encouraged or beneficial maybe, but not required.

If most Muslims didn't think it was NECESSARY to do these non-Quranic practices to be a good Muslim, it wouldn't be an issue. But it doesn't make sense that God promised to protect the Quran so as man will always know THE word, but then require him to muddle through imperfect and inaccurate recordings of history to come up with his interpretation of what it takes to be righteous. It negates the braggable point of having an accurate, complete, perfect, protected word of God.

23

Re: Wuzu (Wudu - whatever)


I didn't see anything there about 5 prayers, this one in particular seems to require 3. What if the slaves or those who have not come to puberty asked leave of you 5 times?

[quote]
There are no inconsistancies in these things , there are no inconsistancies in Quran.
[/quote]
The inconistencies I was referring to was in the Quran vs. the practice of Islam.

24

Re: Wuzu (Wudu - whatever)


Do you really expect someone, even someone who God loves more than all of humanity combined, is going to have the answer on whether or not your mom gets a piece of pie?

The Christian example isn't valid because 1)They don't claim the Bible is the last, perfect, complete, protected word of God and 2)Their rituals and dogmatic practices are not necessary to be a good and real Christian.

25

Re: Wuzu (Wudu - whatever)

so going to Church once a week isnt necessary to be a good and real Christian right. There is orthodoxy and there is the opinion of people such as yourself and the submitters who do not represent the mainstream of the religious thought.

Do you mean to say Christians believe in scripture after the bible? Can you tell me what that is? Do you mean to say that Christians believe that the Bible is not perfect or there are parts of the Bible that are left out? Sure, due to the sheer volume of historical errors evident now in the Bible rational Christian thinkers dont really claim the perfectness part, but thats merely on the face of evidence. Find me evidence that Quran has been changed and we'll talk.

You havent even shown that namaz 5 times as opposed to 3 is a contradiction. All you allege (as disputed by Mirch) that three are mentioned by name. Why is that interesting as far as showing the Quran is imperfect? It is a fundamental part of Islamic dogma that the Prophet was sent as the teacher and explainer of what was instructed in the Quran. The Quran instructs prayers. How to pray, when to pray, what to say when you're praying, none of that is explained in detail in the Quran, nor is it ever claimed by us to go into that level of specificity.

26

Re: Wuzu (Wudu - whatever)

Peace Seminole

There is one verse in the Qur'an that alludes to all five prayer times, but before I tell you this ...

None of the verses that refer to prayer times in the Qur'an limit their numbers to the times that are specified, therefore without them saying offer your prayers only at such and such time you really don't have a point.

As for the verse about the slaves that is nothing to do with prayer times as such. Rather the context of the verse is that servants need to ask permission to enter upon their masters lest they are not clothed. The times specified in those verses are times that are most people are likely to be undressed.

Now here is the verse:

Surah 20 Verse 130:

020.130
YUSUFALI: Therefore be patient with what they say, and celebrate (constantly) the praises of thy Lord, before the rising of the sun, and before its setting; yea, celebrate them for part of the hours of the night, and at the sides of the day: that thou mayest have (spiritual) joy.
PICKTHAL: Therefor (O Muhammad), bear with what they say, and celebrate the praise of thy Lord ere the rising of the sun and ere the going down thereof. And glorify Him some hours of the night and at the two ends of the day, that thou mayst find acceptance.
SHAKIR: Bear then patiently what they say, and glorify your Lord by the praising of Him before the rising of the sun and before its setting, and during hours of the night do also glorify (Him) and during parts of the day, that you may be well pleased

These are related in this order:

Fajr, 'Asr, 'Isha, Zuhr and Maghrib

27

Re: Wuzu (Wudu - whatever)


You are right, there are all kinds of shades of gray. But as different as different Christian sects are, you will be hard pressed to find many who believe others are out of the fold, going to hell or not a Christian for not saying a certain prayer, singing a certain hymn, saying Hail Mary's, confessing to their priest, not attending a certain service, etc.

[quote]
Do you mean to say Christians believe in scripture after the bible? Can you tell me what that is? Do you mean to say that Christians believe that the Bible is not perfect or there are parts of the Bible that are left out? Sure, due to the sheer volume of historical errors evident now in the Bible rational Christian thinkers dont really claim the perfectness part, but thats merely on the face of evidence. Find me evidence that Quran has been changed and we'll talk.
[/quote]
The change I see in the Quran is that the practice of Islam differs from what was revealed in the Quran when it was completed.

[quote]
You havent even shown that namaz 5 times as opposed to 3 is a contradiction. All you allege (as disputed by Mirch) that three are mentioned by name. Why is that interesting as far as showing the Quran is imperfect? It is a fundamental part of Islamic dogma that the Prophet was sent as the teacher and explainer of what was instructed in the Quran. The Quran instructs prayers. How to pray, when to pray, what to say when you're praying, none of that is explained in detail in the Quran, nor is it ever claimed by us to go into that level of specificity.
[/quote]
Did it ever dawn on you that it might not be as necessary as Muslims think to face a certain direction, wash certain body parts, say certain things when praying, etc?

28

Re: Wuzu (Wudu - whatever)

What the hell are you talking about?

Standardizing Processes is the name of the game !

29

Re: Wuzu (Wudu - whatever)

On the contrary, the schisms in Christianity that occurred historically were over fairly mundane, procedural matters, such as confessions, the eucharist etc etc. And until recently (and even now) different groups have held that the other sects wouldnt be doing so great in the afterlife.

On the other hand you assume that variations in practices dont exist in Muslims. Within sunnies there are different ways to pray, variations in wuzu. Likewise across sunnies and shias. Nobody says you will go to hell because you washed your face a certain way. In my belief what is common across the majority of Muslim faiths, shia and sunni, is what is really core to the faith. Variations in other things are not that important.

In the end we believe "Actions have worth based on intentions".

[quote]

The change I see in the Quran is that the practice of Islam differs from what was revealed in the Quran when it was completed.

[/quote]

The Quran was never really for the purpose of going into the operational details of everything. Therefore if some of our practices are based on Prophetic teachings that is the intended method in Islamic belief, the Quran laying down foundational principles, the Prophet explaining them. Again you are NOT able to point out a contradiction, all you can allege is that Muslims say prayers aside from three mentioned at different points in the Quran.

[quote]

Did it ever dawn on you that it might not be as necessary as Muslims think to face a certain direction, wash certain body parts, say certain things when praying, etc?
[/QUOTE]

It isnt really necessary to do anything is it?

30

Re: Wuzu (Wudu - whatever)


I agree that Christian sects split over mundane procedural matters. I think that is a big reason Muslims crave for the monolithic interpretation. And I'm not picking on Islam, just about every organized religion has practices, interpretations, procdures, sectarianism that defy logic.

[quote]
On the other hand you assume that variations in practices dont exist in Muslims. Within sunnies there are different ways to pray, variations in wuzu. Likewise across sunnies and shias. Nobody says you will go to hell because you washed your face a certain way. In my belief what is common across the majority of Muslim faiths, shia and sunni, is what is really core to the fait. Variations in other things are not that important.
[/quote]
I realize the variations in beliefs, all one need to do is look at the split in Iraq right now for a quick study on that. It's the Quran vs the Quran/hadith/sunnah where I see very little variations. It's amazing to me how the vast majority of Muslims put hadith on par with Quran (even though you will say otherwise).

[quote]
The Quran was never really for the purpose of going into the operational details of everything. Therefore if some of our practices are based on Prophetic teachings that is the intended method in Islamic belief, the Quran laying down foundational principles, the Prophet explaining them. Again you are NOT able to point out a contradiction, all you can allege is that Muslims say prayers aside from three mentioned at different points in the Quran.
[/quote]
Prayers are just a sample of the additions to Quran in Islam. If hadith/sunnah was so important, why didn't God also protect their validity/accuracy?

[quote]
It isnt really necessary to do anything is it?
[/quote]
I think we are probably in agreement that we need to live the right life and please God in the process. So yes, many things are necessary. IMO, mimicking the way someone interpreted God's word in an ancient, totally irrelvant society isn't.

31

Re: Wuzu (Wudu - whatever)

It's necessary to do everything the way Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) taught. It's even more necessary to hold onto the teachings of Quran. Whether we as humans understand the logic behind something or not, when the divine orders its creation to do something, you do it. You do not question your master or test your master. It is the creator that gets to test His creation. For obedience there is reward of the afterlife (for those that even believe in the afterlife).

So there isn't a single thing that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) taught in the name of Islam that can be ignored or put aside simply because "we" think it's not necessary. It might just be that we don't understand the logic and reason behind it.

32

Re: Wuzu (Wudu - whatever)

^ or that you are hung up on it to the point of obsession.

33

Re: Wuzu (Wudu - whatever)

Religion is not obsession. Religion is a way of life, and if you're not living life the way your faith tell you to, then you're not really who you say or think you are.

34

Re: Wuzu (Wudu - whatever)

You can question it, that's fine...My beef is, why would you comment on something you don't even follow?

And indeed, it is THE God, THE Book, THE Religion, THE Prophet, THE Truth and THE only way to heaven...I believe in it with all my heart...You don't...

You have no right to question it...You can either believe or be on your merry way...

Or you can claim to be a student of comparative religion and compare things in them...That still wouldn't give you the right to issue statements regarding fiqh...

Google that up...

AAYI AAYI AAYI AAYI
35

Re: Obligatory Prayers : 3 or 5 ?

With no offense but seriously Seminole, HOW much does devil pays you for trying to generate misconceptions about Islam, yet not interested (at all) in practicing even a bit of what you are preaching to others (about Islam) ?

If you are not interested in practicing it yourself, whether it is 3 or 5 namaz, kindly don't waste your precious time in trying to find NEW WAYS in Islam (which you yourself don't want to practice) and then preaching it to other muslims.

Why do you read Quran if you don't want to believe in it ? Just to prove muslims wrong in what they are presently practicing ?

Islam seriously doesn't need services of anyone who doesn't believe in Islam at the first place.

Sorry if I offended you, but such an attitude towards Islamic teachings is not acceptable to me. (and I believe to most of the muslims)

36

Re: Obligatory Prayers : 3 or 5 ?

well seminole tell me 1 thing

u say that in quran there is only order of praying 3 times right
so where in quran god told u the way of praying i mean the whole procedure

if u find it in quran then lemme know pls!

so my point is islam is not complete without sunnah the teachings of prophet

quran is just like a syllabus which to follow the outline the boundries and the text book

can u understand a textbook without a teacher ..........i dont think so

so the teacher is prophet muhammad

he taught muslims the ways the theories and the methods so without sunnah our religion is incomplete

peace!

37

Re: Obligatory Prayers : 3 or 5 ?

to the prophet god gave the order to pray five time on the meraj

otherwise it was going to be 500 times
but he asked god to reduce it to 5 so that tha ppl of his ummah wont feel burdened

38

Re: Wuzu (Wudu - whatever)

not really. most schools of thought in Islam were pretty much standardised before the major splits in christianity occurred, not counting the orthodox vs catholic split.

[quote]

I realize the variations in beliefs, all one need to do is look at the split in Iraq right
now for a quick study on that. It's the Quran vs the Quran/hadith/sunnah where I see very little variations. It's amazing to me how the vast majority of Muslims put hadith on par with Quran (even though you will say otherwise).

[/quote]

Theres a fair amount of variation on what ahadith/sunnah to follow and the extent to which ahadith supplement the Quran. Ultimately it is usually agreed that Quran provides foundational ideas and lessons, whereas ahadith/sunnah explain and refine them.

There is little disagreement that ahadith/sunnah explain and refine Quranic ideas because as much is stated in the Quran that

a) anything the Prophet includes in the religion is not of his whim, but he is directed by Allah
b) the Prophet was sent as a teacher and guide.

[quote]

Prayers are just a sample of the additions to Quran in Islam. If hadith/sunnah was so important, why didn't God also protect their validity/accuracy?

[/quote]

Everything God reveals is important. Bibile was important too, in my view, however God did not protect it. I dont pretend to know why, however in my view whatever was worth preserving about Islam, was preserved. There is very little variation in a lot of the core elements of the religion. In what there is variation doesnt matter to me, and in my view doesnt matter at all.

Obviously there are people in Iraq who disagree.

[quote]

I think we are probably in agreement that we need to live the right life and please God in the process. So yes, many things are necessary. IMO, mimicking the way someone interpreted God's word in an ancient, totally irrelvant society isn't.
[/QUOTE]

is any religious ritual/observation necessary though. i understand being a good person and being a well adjusted member of the society but thats not really what i was talking about.

39

Re: Wuzu (Wudu - whatever)


I feel sure that I have googled, read, researched and studied more about other religions then you ever will. I've been to every type of house of worship that will allow me to attend. There is no ONE belief system.

It's strange and more that a little hypocritcal for someone who hates everything a country stands for will decide to more there, take advantage of it and constantly criticize it, but yet feels he has a right to tell other when to be on their merry where when they visit a mere website. I have no right to question the religion that claims to THE God, THE Book, THE Religion, THE Prophet, THE Truth and THE only way to heaven, yet you can question and criticize all day long the country from which you suckle. Give me a break.

40

Re: Obligatory Prayers : 3 or 5 ?


The devil doesn't pay me any more than he pays those who think their belief system is the only legitimate belief and thinks all else go to hell. I imagine that takes up a good bit of his payroll. So what are these misconceptions of Islam I am generating anyway? I said I don't know of 5 mandatory prayer as per Quran. Can you provide it?

[quote]
If you are not interested in practicing it yourself, whether it is 3 or 5 namaz, kindly don't waste your precious time in trying to find NEW WAYS in Islam (which you yourself don't want to practice) and then preaching it to other muslims.
[/quote]
uhhh.. the new ways are the practices that came subsequent to the Quran, not me. I didn't put up all the websites out there that talk of following the Quran only.

[quote]
Why do you read Quran if you don't want to believe in it ? Just to prove muslims wrong in what they are presently practicing ?
[/quote]
I read all scripture, there is some truth and wisdom in all, including Quran.

[quote]
Islam seriously doesn't need services of anyone who doesn't believe in Islam at the first place.

Sorry if I offended you, but such an attitude towards Islamic teachings is not acceptable to me. (and I believe to most of the muslims)
[/quote]
Then don't read my posts.