other people who have also stood by pakistan should not feel the brunt of whatever the pashtuns have done for pakistan. they should not have their wishes and ideas sacrificed.
its good to debate these issues and i too supported renaming it pakhtunkhwa/afghania but then i have visited the whole of that province and the name change is something that goes against those whoi are not pashtun.
i dont think a lot of time should be wasted on it. there are far more pressing issues.
Thank you! The bottom line is that this provincial issue should even be debated as it is both democratically and politically necessary.
When the chips were down, Pakhtuns were called to stand by Pakistan - and we did. This is the right time to correct an historical wrong.
other people who have also stood by pakistan should not feel the brunt of whatever the pashtuns have done for pakistan. they should not have their wishes and ideas sacrificed.
its good to debate these issues and i too supported renaming it pakhtunkhwa/afghania but then i have visited the whole of that province and the name change is something that goes against those whoi are not pashtun.
i dont think a lot of time should be wasted on it. there are far more pressing issues.
I am not sure if I understand what you mean by "brunt" because this is a name change we're talking about here not a some ethnic pogrom. I agree that there are more pressing matters that need to be dealt with, so this small issue should not be debated over and over again.
This is about restoring an indigenous name and identity.
Pakhtuns have never been indeginious to the area. Its Hindkowan who are indigenous people living here. Most Pakhtuns claim "proudly" to be from places near Kabul, Jalalabad, Kandahar.
Hindko was widely spoken in Mardan,Swabi, Kohat Peshawar maybe as far north as Swat but they have been over taken and out numbered by Pashtuns.
Restoration implies the name was Pakshtunkhwa to begin with - theres no historical record of it ever beeing named that. Quite frankly there was less Pashtuns too.
The whole Pashtun identity thing is quite new. Pashtuns never called themselves Pashtuns but Afghans before. The British referred to them as either Pathans or Afghans at the start. It was the Afghan vs Sikh war. The Mughals do not mention Pashtu being spoken in Kabul but they mention Afghani. the Mughals do not even mentioned Pashtuns but they mention Afghans.
Thats why non-pashtuns from nwfp have a problem with having a name imposed upon them.
I am not sure if I understand what you mean by "brunt" because this is a name change we're talking about here not a some ethnic pogrom. I agree that there are more pressing matters that need to be dealt with, so this small issue should not be debated over and over again.
This is about restoring an indigenous name and identity.
apart from Balochistan, all other provinces names are not named after ethinic lines.
Punjab and Sindh both based on River system not ethinic. it may now look ethinic as people in these provinces adopted these identities. but the actual names has never been based on ethinicity, ie punjab as Jattistan, Chaudrykhwa etc similarly Sindh is never been called on ethinic lines.
but anyway, whatever the situation is right now, they should be allowed to have the name what they want. but claiming that everyother province has ethinic name is completely flawed.
NWFP is not really a name, they should change it instea of saying will change the name!
Pashtuns are not indigenous to this area but all the wars Babars fought in this area some 500 years ago were fought against the Afghans and for him Hindustan was a country lying east to the Jehlum river (read Babar’s memoirs Tozk e Babari).
Olaf Caroe in his book The Pathans claims that the Yusufzais were living in the Peshawar valley when this area was attacked by the White Huns and that theys had migrated towards Kandahar after their attack-even Greek historian Herodotus mentions of various Pashtun tribes living in Arachosia.
Afghan is a very vague term but it has been synonym to Pashtun as famous Pashtun poet Khoshal K. Khattak writes:
*“Pull out your sword and slay any one, that says Pashtoon and Afghan are not one. Arabs know this so do Romans. Afghans are Pashtoon Pashtoons are Afghans.”
*Having said that, one thing is sure that Pashtuns make up almost 75% of NWFP and they are indigenous to this area and all your blurred arguments cannot prove it otherwise-and because they are in a overwhelming majority they have every democratic right to name their province whatever they want to.
THejoke you are confused in your arguments. On one hand you say in attock and Mianwali Pashtun are in minority and they should not be joined with Nwfp, On other hand as i said 18 districts are pashtun and 2 are mixed , other fours have different ethinic majority. Chitral and Kohistan are not Hindko speaker and these area are surronded by pashtun, they will support Pakhtunkhwa. You are trying to argue the majority should not give name to there province.
YOu said very intresting thing, chach valley and Mianwali pashtun lost their language so they are not pashtun. Pashtunwali is the the basis of pashtun not language. Even in Hazara jadoon, tareen,tanoli,dalazak,swati and yousafzai called them pashtun and proud on their pashtun basis.
remeber soon these pashtun will starts speaking pashtu, you can see many jadoon and swaties starts pashtu.Because they belong to upper strata the other people will follow their suit.
you said that in hazara pashtu will be eliminated , the picture is pashtu is increasing in the area.
I can’t believe that I am reading this! This is the equivalent of the revisionist history that many Indians forward. East of the Abasin has been Pakhtun territory for thousands of years. As some of the other member have given more than enough proof to your ridiculous assertion, I am not going to labor the point further.
Give it a rest, Pakhtunkhwa = has been home to Afghans/Pakhtuns for thousands of years. You’re right that it wasn’t called Pakhtunkhwa, it was Afghanistan
No one asked your opinion..How about you worry about Karachi and the impending Pakhtun invasion and leave this matter to the people of province.
Thejoke has as much right to discuss his grievances as anyone else from Pakhtunkhwa.
Ok ok, how about Islamic Emirate of Pushtunistan, should satisfy both the jihadis and nationalists. I don't really care what you name your province, and the invasion of refugees you want will be worse for Pashtuns.
Ok ok, how about Islamic Emirate of Pushtunistan, should satisfy both the jihadis and nationalists. I don't really care what you name your province, and the invasion of refugees you want will be worse for Pashtuns.
^
By stating that you don't care yet still suggesting a name for Pakhtunkhwa indicates your hypocrisy. No **one cares about what you think.**
Oh I am sure it will be worse for Pakhtuns, when the mayor of Karachi is more interested in flaming ethnic hatred against the poorest strata of society.
Is there any or proof of it? Afghanistan ie the west of the curent Durnad line today Mya have had Afghans but east of the current Durand line was there ever a record for Pakhtuns/Afghans living there.
The Afghan empire did stretch much further easst into India but did any historian mention Pakhtuns/Afghans living in the area known as NWFP pre-Islam?
As for as I know as Mahmud of Ghazni moved forward he defeated Hindu RAJA’S.
The Dilazaks have lived in that area known as NWFP longer than most of the Pakhtun tribes and the Dilazaks have never been accepted as pashtuns.
Pashtuns move eastward with the the spread of Islam.
Hindko has always been considered the NATIVE language of the Peshawar valley.
That is the Master plan my friend. I do not oppose a united Pashtun province but i object to places such as chitral, hazara, eastern d i khan, indus kohistan being forced into it.
Some pashtuns and afghhans cliam up to gwadar as a part of historical afghanistan. a lot of the modern day pashtun nationalists claim deep into sibi and other baloch area which baloch nationaliosts object too.
its one of the dangers of ethnic nationalism - everyone claims what everyones has/wants too
This change of name may lead to further demand of division of Balochistan. That will create a rift between Balouchs and Pushtoons over there.
I have no objection to a pakhtun province but an ethnic province must be fair in its boundaries.
People in chitral speak kho, in eastern d i khan they speak seraiki, in indus kohistan they speak kohistani, in mansera, abbotabad, haripur they speak hindko with pashtu spoken in some areas. mansera has more pashtu speakers than abottobad and haripur. batagram is predominantly pashtun.
what on earth makes you think they will support pakhtunkhwa? no chitrali i know is in favour of being labelled a pashtun.
the land of pashtunistan must be based on pashtu speaking areas. if the meaning of the word pashtun is goign to be base dion pashtunwali then most have stopped behaviung liek true pashtuns
if it is based on language u have a fair argument
if it is based on ethnic origin then 50% of pashtu speakers in nwfp are not pure pashtuns but have assimilated.
THejoke you are confused in your arguments. On one hand you say in attock and Mianwali Pashtun are in minority and they should not be joined with Nwfp, On other hand as i said 18 districts are pashtun and 2 are mixed , other fours have different ethinic majority. Chitral and Kohistan are not Hindko speaker and these area are surronded by pashtun, they will support Pakhtunkhwa. You are trying to argue the majority should not give name to there province.
YOu said very intresting thing, chach valley and Mianwali pashtun lost their language so they are not pashtun. Pashtunwali is the the basis of pashtun not language. Even in Hazara jadoon, tareen,tanoli,dalazak,swati and yousafzai called them pashtun and proud on their pashtun basis.
remeber soon these pashtun will starts speaking pashtu, you can see many jadoon and swaties starts pashtu.Because they belong to upper strata the other people will follow their suit.
you said that in hazara pashtu will be eliminated , the picture is pashtu is increasing in the area.
Is there any or proof of it? Afghanistan ie the west of the curent Durnad line today Mya have had Afghans but east of the current Durand line was there ever a record for Pakhtuns/Afghans living there.
The Afghan empire did stretch much further easst into India but did any historian mention Pakhtuns/Afghans living in the area known as NWFP pre-Islam?
As for as I know as Mahmud of Ghazni moved forward he defeated Hindu RAJA'S.
The Dilazaks have lived in that area known as NWFP longer than most of the Pakhtun tribes and the Dilazaks have never been accepted as pashtuns.
Pashtuns move eastward with the the spread of Islam.
Hindko has always been considered the NATIVE language of the Peshawar valley.
Dilazaks were Afghans who had migrated form the Suleman Range to Peshawar valley long before the invasion of Mahmud of Ghazni. They had also fought alongside Mahmud against the rulers of Punjab and India. Babar also mentions of Dilazaks in his memoirs and he always called them as 'Dilazak Afghans'. For e.g. at one occasion he writes,
"On Tuesday the seventh, I summoned the begs and the Dilazak Afghans to council, where the following topics were discussed".
Now if you say that only those can be considered local who have been living here since the times of Baba Adam then they really are not locals.
You say is there any poof of Afghans living to the eastern side of the Durand Line. The Suleman Range is considered the cradle of Afghan race and even M. Ghazni fought wars against the Afhgans in the Suleman Range.
o Bhai logo. what is the big deal, majority elected a govt which changed the name. thats democracy, change name, make policies,..thats what govt is for, and elected representatives should be doing what the majority of theri constituents want on federl, provincial, district, city, mohalla level. Its really not as big of a deal as some are making it. thand pao. let it go. There are bigger things to deal with.
Before the close of the seventh century a new race-the Afghans or Pathans-appeared upon the scene. This people are first heard of as holding the hills of Ghor and Suliman about the middle of the seventh century A. D. at the time when Persia first succumbed to the force of Mohammadan arms. Against the Arab wave of conquest the Pathans appear not only to have held their own but also to have commenced about the same period a series of attacks upon their Indian neighbours of the countries bordering on the Indus. Ferishta records a campaign of 70 pitched battles in five months when in the event the Pathans succeeded in wresting a portion of the plain country near the Indus from the Rajahs of Lahore. Joined later by the Gakkars who at this period held all the country from the Indus to the Jhelum the Pathans c. 700 A. D. compelled the Lahore rulers to cede to them all the hill country west of the Indus and south of the Kabul River on condition of their guarding that frontier of Hindustan against invasion.
Even after this date however the plain of Peshawar and apparently the Jalalabad plain still further west together with the hills to the north including modern Swat, Buner, etc., were occupied by tribes connected with India who appear to have been left un-molested. In the 10th century Peshawar came for-the first time under foreign yoke when Sabuktagin of Ghazni defeated Jaipal, the Hindu Prince of Lahore, near Laghman in Afghanistan and drove his armies across the Indus with great slaughter (978 A. D.). The conqueror took possession of all the country west of the Indus and left his Lieutenant Abu All as Governor of Peshawar with an army of 10,000 horses.In this campaign the Pathans sided with Sabuktagin and furnished soldiers to his army.
Is 10th century good enough for you? Also, this debunks your theory about Pakhtuns spreading to east of the Durand after conversion to Islam.
If hindko is a native language to Pekhawar valley why has it been reduced to the status of a ‘punjabi varient’ spoke by ‘punjabi pathans’? I put those words in quotes because that is what many linguists and scholars believe. I mean Punjabi, Sindhi, and Baluchi all have been able to survive despite wars, immigration, and catastrophes. I am not here to insult Hindko or people who speak the language, but to call it the native langauge of Pekhawar may be more of myth to link the people to the area, than anything else.
I can’t believe that I am reading this! This is the equivalent of the revisionist history that many Indians forward. East of the Abasin has been Pakhtun territory for thousands of years. As some of the other member have given more than enough proof to your ridiculous assertion, I am not going to labor the point further.
