Re: No Sir no...you can't have your cake and eat it too!
The US is losing the war in Afghanistan. Pure and simple. RC West and RC South are in complete disarray. 25% of all children killed in Afghanistan were killed by coalition and Afghan forces. 75% by the Taliban 25% by the "good guys".
Zafra, you are only making my point but don't seem to realize it. The US is NOT the one suffering because of the war in AfPak - It is Afghans and Pakistanis. And the Pakistanis tried to eat the cake and have it (aka doublegame) and hence these results.
Re: No Sir no...you can't have your cake and eat it too!
Easier said than done when US has sanctioned Pakistan in middle of war leading to no jet fuel or even arnaments for ships, tanks and aircraft (china had to supply rockets for pakistani ships in 65), plans to bomb pakistan's nuclear program in late seventies not to mention stealing pakistani money for f16s and selling overpriced soyabeans in the end.
As for 2002, geez do I remember another war in the making at that time? I think that it was in Antartica where it happened...
Dopple, you are only defining the difference between might and weakness, not right and wrong.
Take ANY difference of opinion - right and wrong define the contest up to when it hasn't become a violent conflict. Once something has become violent like a war, the only thing that matters is might vs weak.
The weak but smart ones will be those that never get any conflict they are party to to violence and war. Pakistan keeps failing this and hence the consequences.
Re: No Sir no...you can't have your cake and eat it too!
Zafra, you are only making my point but don't seem to realize it. The US is NOT the one suffering because of the war in AfPak - It is Afghans and Pakistanis. And the Pakistanis tried to eat the cake and have it (aka doublegame) and hence these results.
And my point is that the US is killing civilians. Thanks for agreeing.
Re: No Sir no...you can't have your cake and eat it too!
We demand Pakistan to do it, cause our identity is not USA but Pakistan. Starting to point fingers at others instead of fixing ourselves is a road map to disaster. Look at Japan who immediately fixed itself after the war, instead of playing a blame games. In almost the same time frame as ours, Japan has become one of the greatest nation in terms of economy, technology and discipline. In contrast, look at us, and we came to the level where we are now thinking that Benazir and Musharrafs days were the best days of our recent history.
Also we all like to think that we learned something from the Peshawar Tragedy. You mark my words that in less than 180 days, we will be back to the same bickering and blames and will forget about everything.
If your identity is not the US then by all means state that the US has committed war crimes in Afghanistan and Iraq. I have yet to see you actually condemn the US for killing civilians. You keep harping on about Pakistan.
Re: No Sir no...you can't have your cake and eat it too!
And my point is that the US is killing civilians. Thanks for agreeing.
you have to be equally sad whether it is civilians or military that get killed. How many hundreds of soldiers have died on both sides? all this could have been avoided if the war had ended in 2002. It would have ended then but for Pakistan's attempt at cute double games.
Assuming Gen.Rasheel knows what he is doing in blaming Haqqani for the Peshawar massacre, don't you think Pakistan's non-cooperation with the US in the past in catching him and others similar to him enabled that massacre?
Re: No Sir no...you can't have your cake and eat it too!
If your identity is not the US then by all means state that the US has committed war crimes in Afghanistan and Iraq. I have yet to see you actually condemn the US for killing civilians. You keep harping on about Pakistan.
I am sticking to the topic of this thread. As far as War crimes are concerned, are we discussing 1971 East Pakistan tragedy here? No right, cause that is not the topic. If you want to discuss US war crimes, open another thread. No need to derail this.
Re: No Sir no...you can't have your cake and eat it too!
I am sticking to the topic of this thread. As far as War crimes are concerned, are we discussing 1971 East Pakistan tragedy here? No right, cause that is not the topic. If you want to discuss US war crimes, open another thread. No need to derail this.
My point refers to your hypocrisy. And again no condemnation. Just demands on Pakistanis but none on the US.
Re: No Sir no...you can't have your cake and eat it too!
Lol. I am only reacting to your stubbornness with the similar amount of stubbornness. You start a separate thread about US war crimes, and I may come in and post.
Re: No Sir no...you can't have your cake and eat it too!
you have to be equally sad whether it is civilians or military that get killed. How many hundreds of soldiers have died on both sides? all this could have been avoided if the war had ended in 2002. It would have ended then but for Pakistan's attempt at cute double games.
Assuming Gen.Rasheel knows what he is doing in blaming Haqqani for the Peshawar massacre, don't you think Pakistan's non-cooperation with the US in the past in catching him and others similar to him enabled that massacre?
yes Pakistan took US into Iraq in 2003 when they had not completed the war in Afghanistan. All fault of Pakistan. That they failed to wipe out Taliban completely from Afghanistan was Pakistan's fault, that India was quick to open offices to assist Afghainstan with stranded Afghans in Baluchistan was Pakistan's fault. How simple.
Re: No Sir no...you can't have your cake and eat it too!
yes Pakistan took US into Iraq in 2003 when they had not completed the war in Afghanistan. All fault of Pakistan. That they failed to wipe out Taliban completely from Afghanistan was Pakistan's fault, that India was quick to open offices to assist Afghainstan with stranded Afghans in Baluchistan was Pakistan's fault. How simple.
come on, you should know better than that. Why are you drawing Iraq into this discussion at all? That will only confuse things.
Yes, it was and is Pakistan's fault - not just fault, actually outright purposeful action - that resulted in the USA's inability to wipe out the terrorists and conclude the war in 2002. That is why I referenced Carlotta Gall's work.
Your drawing India into this is somewhat like the guys who shout 'Raw did it' whenever they don't want to admit their ttp pals did it. Why do you object to India building a road for Afghans? They have the need and India needs friends. OTOH what did Pakistan do? They refused to allow essential supplies to go through - and you expect to build friendship that way?
Re: No Sir no...you can't have your cake and eat it too!
zafra bhai ...I am with you to condemn USA reaction after 911 and there is no dispute there but that is a different topic.
In this thread, I am saying that now that we want unconditional condemnation of terrorism in Pakistan without ifs and buts, can we do the same for 911. that is all. When 911 happened and even today, we in pakistan get into Intellectual discussion of 911 and we dont condemn it unconditionally and always get into ifs and buts of as to why 911 happened and why USA received it.
But most Pakistanis do that. The ones that consider 9/11 a hoax and the same who support Maulana Burqa. The double standard doesn't exist anymore.
Re: No Sir no...you can't have your cake and eat it too!
But most Pakistanis do that. The ones that consider 9/11 a hoax and the same who support Maulana Burqa. The double standard doesn't exist anymore.
ok ..well we can agree to disagree. Based on my interaction with common people over in Pak, online community, media journalists, anchors and columnists, I never got a feeling that we in Pak are willing to condemn 911 terrorism unconditionally. Overwhelming majority of pakistanis from every facet of life always had some kind of "intellectual" reasoning as to why 911 happened and how USA was responsible to bring it upon itself...and i am saying that now that we are willing to condemn terrorism unconditionally in pakistan we shd start doing it across the globe because there is no intellectual or logical explanation for terrorism and we need to have this mindset on a consistent and narrative basis.
We have laid out our cases and ...like i said before, lets agree to disagree. thx and happy new year!
Re: No Sir no...you can't have your cake and eat it too!
come on, you should know better than that. Why are you drawing Iraq into this discussion at all? That will only confuse things.
Yes, it was and is Pakistan's fault - not just fault, actually outright purposeful action - that resulted in the USA's inability to wipe out the terrorists and conclude the war in 2002. That is why I referenced Carlotta Gall's work.
Your drawing India into this is somewhat like the guys who shout 'Raw did it' whenever they don't want to admit their ttp pals did it. Why do you object to India building a road for Afghans? They have the need and India needs friends. OTOH what did Pakistan do? They refused to allow essential supplies to go through - and you expect to build friendship that way?
oh I see it was Pakistan fault and US was so weak it couldn't do anything. You need to wake up and take off those anti Pakistan glasses you wear all the time. Yes India only went in to build road from Afghanistan to Baluchistan border in order to facilitate the return of Afghan refugee. Yes India was and is involved in Baluchistan.
Re: No Sir no...you can't have your cake and eat it too!
Yes, it was and is Pakistan's fault - not just fault, actually outright purposeful action - that resulted in the USA's inability to wipe out the terrorists and conclude the war in 2002. That is why I referenced Carlotta Gall's work.
US went to war due to geopolitical reasons, not to wipe out terrorists. Pakistan's actions at the time had geopolitical reasons, not to safeguard terrorists. India's actions at the time was due to.. you guessed it! There are no good guys, bad guys here, just nations acting in , what they perceive as, the best interest of their nation.
War should never have been initiated by the US. Sadly the American society has been somewhat conditioned to believe that war and violence is often the solution to all problems.
I often hear people say how much worse off the world would have been if it was living at the mercy of Russia or China, instead of America. Well, I'm sure Victims of American war crimes would beg to differ.
Re: No Sir no...you can't have your cake and eat it too!
you have to be equally sad whether it is civilians or military that get killed. How many hundreds of soldiers have died on both sides? all this could have been avoided if the war had ended in 2002
All would have been avoided if there was no war. Taliban offered to negotiate with the US on the issue. Bush said no, he wanted to go to war. Then he started another war in 2003, to insert another puppet regime in another nation.
And we are really (only) discussing Pakistan's wrongdoings in this mess?
Re: No Sir no...you can't have your cake and eat it too!
Few questions in wake of sad Peshawar tragedy:
1)Today we want everyone in Pakistan to condemn these terrorists/TTP and their activities unconditionally without any ifs, ands, or buts...or otherwise you will be labeled as a taliban apologist. Awesome......but when USA asked us to condemn 911 attacks and these animals unconditionally, we Pakistanis had gazillion excuses, and millions of ifs and buts. We started to preach Americans that they should look into reasons why 911 happened and try to address those root causes and blah blah. So, either accept today that we were wrong then and that we should have condemned 911 attacks by terrorists unconditionally or we should let taliban apologists continue preaching their narrative in Pakistan today. After-all you can't have your cake and eat it too!
2) Today, we are furious and want surgical strikes on Afghanistan to kill molvi fazal. We want afghan govt to handover molvi fazal to us right away...fair demand but didnt india have the same demand for so long about Dawood Ibrahim after 1993 mumbai blasts but we kept on protecting Dawood Ibrahim to this date. how is it different? So either return daoowd or dont ask about molvi fazal. After-all you can't have your cake and eat it too!
3) Today, we in Pakistan are sick of anyone who hint a conspiracy theory in Peshawar tragedy. We seem to be done with conspiracy theories... Jazak Allah, awesome but are we pakistanis willing to shed all conspiracy theories about 911 and mumbai 2008 blasts as well which we believed so passionately? After-all you can't have your cake and eat it too!
there are few other points as well but lets start here. Of-course open for discussion but in a civilized manner please. thx
1) 9/11 attacks must be condemned. The aftermath of 9/11 must be condemned even more vociferously.
2) All criminals should be handed over. But there should not be put forward demands, but rather there should be collaboration, where all involved parties/nations are treated as equals.
3) No conspiracy thories please. Wholeheartedly agree.
Also, main problem is the mindset which nurtures these vile individuals. Tolerance on all levels must be promoted, and there must be complete freedom of religion. Sancity of human life must be valued higher than (perceived) sancity of religion.
Re: No Sir no...you can't have your cake and eat it too!
US went to war due to geopolitical reasons, not to wipe out terrorists..
what geopolitical reasons? that is what taliban apologists were telling us throughout last 15 years and we kept on believing this narrative....
i am sure USA has many petty objectives but what abt accepting our mistakes...what about our army generals under Musharraf who kept on playing double games...took billions from USA by claiming that we will help usa in war on terrorism but in the meantime also kept on playing double games by protecting "good taliban" (haqqani, mullah omar) and helping them attack Americans in Afghanistan and at the same time also kept on selling narrative to pakistani public that USA is in Afghanistan for geopolitical reasons!!!
by the way a similar type of so-called geopolitical narrative was promoted and sold by our so called strategic experts to pakistani public during afghan-russia war that russia is after warm waters ports and hence russia will attack pakistan anytime, so we need to stop this monster. Pakistani public bought that narrative and supported that bloody war which destroyed Pakistan. And guess what, afghan war finished 25 years ago but how-come russia or any of ex-russian states who now have normal relationship with Pakistan for sometime never contacted Pakistan to use its warm water ports in exchange of some fee that they wanted to invade so badly per our narrative!
Re: No Sir no...you can't have your cake and eat it too!
@Ehaan - if you are simply going to dismiss all arguments and evidence as anti-Pakistan glass, all I can say is you are wrong and ask you open your eyes and mind to facs. @Balthier - I don't know why you think terrorism needs to be excused as some sort of geo political game. Actually the terrorists in their manifesto say what they are doing is to punish the west for anti-Islamic actions. And then they go and kill innocent civilians and children in Peshawar. You like PAKistan cannot succeed in any objective if you want to use terrorism as a means and at the same time want to be seen as anti- terrorism.
Re: No Sir no...you can't have your cake and eat it too!
ok ..well we can agree to disagree. Based on my interaction with common people over in Pak, online community, media journalists, anchors and columnists, I never got a feeling that we in Pak are willing to condemn 911 terrorism unconditionally. Overwhelming majority of pakistanis from every facet of life always had some kind of "intellectual" reasoning as to why 911 happened and how USA was responsible to bring it upon itself...and i am saying that now that we are willing to condemn terrorism unconditionally in pakistan we shd start doing it across the globe because there is no intellectual or logical explanation for terrorism and we need to have this mindset on a consistent and narrative basis.
We have laid out our cases and ...like i said before, lets agree to disagree. thx and happy new year!
Happy new year to you too and merry Christmas :p
Well it depends on who you ask? Like I said CNN, The Daily Beast and the Washington Post all had articles that stated we deserved the massacre in Peshawar. It was a situation of chicken's coming home to roost. Now that is basically the media, journalists, anchors and columnists basically saying we deserved it.
The same applies to AFPAK and the New York Times though the New York Times was far more diplomatic. Lets not forget Fox news or other pundits of such ilk.
Also more importantly look at the on line community on yahoo news or such website who basically said we deserved it.
You accuse Pakistanis of having double standards, yet Americans do the same. The reason I am highlighting Americans is because you have in the past supported drone strikes even though they killed civilians and I am assuming with a good degree of accuracy you are a dual national.