re: No Sir no...you can't have your cake and eat it too!
Maybe I should have only written Pakistani People and not Muslims. As far as Pakistani's view of book of people and treatment of them by Pakistanis, that clause is mostly only invoked to imply HOW GREAT ISLAM IS or to emphasize that daughters/women of christians/jews are fair game/Halal for muslims. It does not even work/mentioned to support a muslim girl marrying jew.
I suggest you not generalize because not everybody is like that. The specific minority in Pakistan that supports the Taliban feels this way. The way the average person feels is "who the **** cares". Seriously we got bigger problems.
As for Pakistani women marrying outside of Islam is more common now than before. 3 women in my social circle are married to non-muslims. So lets not be racist shall we?
re: No Sir no...you can't have your cake and eat it too!
it is a hell hole, NOT the USA. Hope you get that. How many US citizens have been killed vs how many Afghans or Pakistanis?
So what does your empty gloat even mean?
The US is losing the war in Afghanistan. Pure and simple. RC West and RC South are in complete disarray. 25% of all children killed in Afghanistan were killed by coalition and Afghan forces. 75% by the Taliban 25% by the "good guys".
re: No Sir no...you can't have your cake and eat it too!
Two wrongs definitely do not make one right. The analogies are completely fallacious. You are comparing the Peshawar massacre with the US's war on terror. US has been invading and destroying mainly the innocent Muslims left right and center like a mad elephant. Do you anticipate Pakistan doing the same? (needs a hell of guts and a war mongering dada giri which unfortunately Pakistan cannot enjoy).
re: No Sir no...you can't have your cake and eat it too!
OK - But this thread is to discuss Pakistani people and their attitude towards extremism in regards with above mentioned points, Isn't it?
If the thread is to discuss Pakistanis and their attitude towards extremism than why are you bringing all the muslims in general in this thread why not confine your comments to Pakistanis only. What I am saying is that while we are quick to condemn the Pakistanis we tend to ignore such similar attitude by others. At the end of the day US can go and kill 100,000 innocents to protect their "national" interest than why pick on Pakistanis only. Read on face book what your ordinary American says about Palestinians and Pakistanis and Muslims in general. They want all of them wiped out. Why complain when the compliment is returned.
re: No Sir no...you can't have your cake and eat it too!
If the thread is to discuss Pakistanis and their attitude towards extremism than why are you bringing all the muslims in general in this thread why not confine your comments to Pakistanis only. What I am saying is that while we are quick to condemn the Pakistanis we tend to ignore such similar attitude by others. At the end of the day US can go and kill 100,000 innocents to protect their "national" interest than why pick on Pakistanis only. Read on face book what your ordinary American says about Palestinians and Pakistanis and Muslims in general. They want all of them wiped out. Why complain when the compliment is returned.
Guilty - I have correct myself in one of above posts
re: No Sir no...you can't have your cake and eat it too!
9/11 was despicable and killed thousands of innocent victims by the terrorists but than we had over 100,000 INNOCENTS killed by the same govt who wanted revenge against their innocents killed. Does two wrongs make right and why ignore those innocents killed in the name of war on terror. In that case they had their cake and also ate it. Everyone looks after their own interests why blame Pakistanis only. While talking about palestinian suicide bombers what about the masacre of innocent people in gaza carried out with the approval of west and particularly US. They are having their cake and eating it. again it is what is in your national interest.
If you want to condemn Pakistan than condemn all others as well.
dear sir jee, i am making a simple point. I am not trying to justify what USA did or what USA did not do. This thread is not about USA.
All I am saying that you and I have been the biggest proponent of unconditional condemnation of terrorism in Pakistan without any ifs and buts. Right? That is great but are we also willing to condemn 911 terrorism without any ifs and buts?
The moment i mentioned 911,some of us started to induce ifs and buts and all the atrocities that USA committed. Well that is exactly the same behavior what taliban apologists exhibit in pakistan. they remind us all the atrocities that Pak army committed in these regions, all the drones attacks and what not.
We now hate conspiracy theories in pakistan but are we also willing to say no to all conspiracy theories related to 911? that is all
re: No Sir no...you can't have your cake and eat it too!
If the thread is to discuss Pakistanis and their attitude towards extremism than why are you bringing all the muslims in general in this thread why not confine your comments to Pakistanis only. What I am saying is that while we are quick to condemn the Pakistanis we tend to ignore such similar attitude by others. At the end of the day US can go and kill 100,000 innocents to protect their "national" interest than why pick on Pakistanis only. Read on face book what your ordinary American says about Palestinians and Pakistanis and Muslims in general. They want all of them wiped out. Why complain when the compliment is returned.
this is all together a different discussion sir jee. I am not condemning pakistan army for their military action at all. Am I? NOT AT ALL. had i condemned Pakistani military for their militarily action, sure you coould have then said that US army did the same for the national interest. I am saying something totally different.
re: No Sir no...you can't have your cake and eat it too!
dear sir jee, i am making a simple point. I am not trying to justify what USA did or what USA did not do. This thread is not about USA.
All I am saying that you and I have been the biggest proponent of unconditional condemnation of terrorism in Pakistan without any ifs and buts. Right? That is great but are we also willing to condemn 911 terrorism without any ifs and buts?
The moment i mentioned 911,some of us started to induce ifs and buts and all the atrocities that USA commited. Well that is exactly the same behavior what taliban apologists exhibit in pakistan. they remind us all the atrocities that Pak army commited in these regions, all the drones attacks and what not.
We now hate conspiracy theories in pakistan but are we also willing to say no to all consproaacy thyeroies relaetd to 911? that is all
The question is are you willing to condemn the US without any ifs and buts for killing civilians? That is why I am calling you out. You don't do it. You demand Pakistanis do it but nothing in return.
re: No Sir no...you can't have your cake and eat it too!
dear sir jee, i am making a simple point. I am not trying to justify what USA did or what USA did not do. This thread is not about USA.
All I am saying that you and I have been the biggest proponent of unconditional condemnation of terrorism in Pakistan without any ifs and buts. Right? That is great but are we also willing to condemn 911 terrorism without any ifs and buts?
The moment i mentioned 911,some of us started to induce ifs and buts and all the atrocities that USA commited. Well that is exactly the same behavior what taliban apologists exhibit in pakistan. they remind us all the atrocities that Pak army commited in these regions, all the drones attacks and what not.
We now hate conspiracy theories in pakistan but are we also willing to say no to all consproaacy thyeroies relaetd to 911? that is all
There are more 9/11 conspiracy theories in america and west in general than in Pakistan. I have always hated conspiracy theories. Whether the thread is about USA or not it is relevant because we are talking about how nations react. As far as I am concerned there are no ifs and buts about 9/11 it was unacceptable, what followed in its name was even more unacceptable. Condemn that as well. 50,000 Pakistanis have died as a result of this war on terror and we are still told that we are not doing enough. Stuff them.
re: No Sir no...you can't have your cake and eat it too!
this is all together a different discussion sir jee. I am not condemning pakistan army for their military action at all. Am I? NOT AT ALL. had i condemned Pakistani military for their militarily action, sure you cold have then said that US army did the same on national interest. I am saying something totally different.
re: No Sir no...you can't have your cake and eat it too!
Lets keep Palestinian/Israel issue out of this discussion. I requested this before as well. thx
How come you expect this while discussing grievances of Pakistanis against USA. Don't you know Pakistan is the fort of Islam. Islam ki thekedari hamare paas hai and saare jahan ke Muslamanon ka dard (siwae Pakistani Muslims ke) hamare dil ko hamesha bechain rakhta hai
re: No Sir no...you can't have your cake and eat it too!
There are more 9/11 conspiracy theories in america and west in general than in Pakistan. I have always hated conspiracy theories. Whether the thread is about USA or not it is relevant because we are talking about how nations react. As far as I am concerned there are no ifs and buts about 9/11 it was unacceptable, what followed in its name was even more unacceptable. Condemn that as well. 50,000 Pakistanis have died as a result of this war on terror and we are still told that we are not doing enough. Stuff them.
Absolutely fine janab...I am with you to condemn USA reaction after 911 and there is no dispute there but the topic of this thread is different.
I am talking about unconditional condemnation of 911 by us. When 911 happened (and even today), we in pakistan always get into an Intellectual discussion as to why 911 happened and why USA received it. we don't condemn that horrible event unconditionally and always get into ifs and buts and what not.
and all i am saying that now that we finally want an unconditional condemnation of terrorism in Pakistan without any ifs and buts, can we do the same for 911? that is all
and Yes i know you are against conspiracy theories. I am talking about millions in Pakistan.
re: No Sir no...you can't have your cake and eat it too!
even the vilest of terrorist when asked will have a reason for what he did or wanted to do. does not mean we have to sympathize or agree and forgive, like it happens in 'society is to blame' bollywood movies.
If Arafat had accepted the deal decades ago (which by the way is what they are demanding now, approximately) how many lives could have been saved and how much development could have taken place? whether one thinks the reason for that refusal then was fear of peace by that militia or miscalculation, fact is a golden chance was let go.
Read Carlotta Gall's book. Had Pakistan cooperated and not played double games the war in Afghanistan would have been over in 2002 - How many lives would that have saved in AfPak? Instead whether it was due to the fear of peace on the part of Pak military or miscalculation, what should have been a small conflict escalated into a decade long war with Pakistanis 'serving' both sides and getting killed on both sides. Terrorist groups have been in the process hardened both materially and ideologically.
Nobody can eat and have the cake. Whether USA or Pakistan. But USA is mightier in every respect by orders of magnitude and rsik very little when they realize and reverse course. But Pakistan does not have that luxury - they have to start takin correct morally sound and sustainable decisions based on developmental goals and not on undeserved dreams such as leadership of ummah, parleys for Kashmir or Chinese surrogacy.
All this holds for India too - but there seems to be a bit more sanity there as the military knows its place.
Easier said than done when US has sanctioned Pakistan in middle of war leading to no jet fuel or even arnaments for ships, tanks and aircraft (china had to supply rockets for pakistani ships in 65), plans to bomb pakistan's nuclear program in late seventies not to mention stealing pakistani money for f16s and selling overpriced soyabeans in the end.
As for 2002, geez do I remember another war in the making at that time? I think that it was in Antartica where it happened...
re: No Sir no...you can't have your cake and eat it too!
The question is are you willing to condemn the US without any ifs and buts for killing civilians? That is why I am calling you out. You don't do it. You demand Pakistanis do it but nothing in return.
zafra bhai ...I am with you to condemn USA reaction after 911 and there is no dispute there but that is a different topic.
In this thread, I am saying that now that we want unconditional condemnation of terrorism in Pakistan without ifs and buts, can we do the same for 911. that is all. When 911 happened and even today, we in pakistan get into Intellectual discussion of 911 and we dont condemn it unconditionally and always get into ifs and buts of as to why 911 happened and why USA received it.
re: No Sir no...you can't have your cake and eat it too!
We demand Pakistan to do it, cause our identity is not USA but Pakistan. Starting to point fingers at others instead of fixing ourselves is a road map to disaster. Look at Japan who immediately fixed itself after the war, instead of playing a blame games. In almost the same time frame as ours, Japan has become one of the greatest nation in terms of economy, technology and discipline. In contrast, look at us, and we came to the level where we are now thinking that Benazir and Musharrafs days were the best days of our recent history.
Also we all like to think that we learned something from the Peshawar Tragedy. You mark my words that in less than 180 days, we will be back to the same bickering and blames and will forget about everything.
Re: No Sir no...you can't have your cake and eat it too!
We demand Pakistan to do it, cause our identity is not USA but Pakistan. Starting to point fingers at others instead of fixing ourselves is a road map to disaster. Look at Japan who immediately fixed itself after the war, instead of playing a blame games. In almost the same time frame as ours, Japan has become one of the greatest nation in terms of economy, technology and discipline. In contrast, look at us, and we came to the level where we are now thinking that Benazir and Musharrafs days were the best days of our recent history.
Also we all like to think that we learned something from the Peshawar Tragedy. **You mark my words that in less than 180 days, we will be back to the same bickering and blames and will forget about everything.
**Eerrrr we are on to that already, kinda. I do not really see any other use of this thread other than the false ego that Scorpios exhibit, going round in circles and circles. No fun, frankly.
Afghan War is past.
9/11 is past.
Our own participation in war on terror by US is past.
Present is Peshawar tragedy and its aftermath. We have resolved to wipeout terrorism from our country (since YES it hit HARD when it hit home). Let us be on that instead of beating about the bush of past.