1)Today we want everyone in Pakistan to condemn these terrorists/TTP and their activities unconditionally without any ifs, ands, or buts…or otherwise you will be labeled as a taliban apologist. Awesome…but when USA asked us to condemn 911 attacks and these animals unconditionally, we Pakistanis had gazillion excuses, and millions of ifs and buts. We started to preach Americans that they should look into reasons why 911 happened and try to address those root causes and blah blah. So, either accept today that we were wrong then and that we should have condemned 911 attacks by terrorists unconditionally or we should let taliban apologists continue preaching their narrative in Pakistan today. After-all you can’t have your cake and eat it too!
Today, we are furious and want surgical strikes on Afghanistan to kill molvi fazal. We want afghan govt to handover molvi fazal to us right away…fair demand but didnt india have the same demand for so long about Dawood Ibrahim after 1993 mumbai blasts but we kept on protecting Dawood Ibrahim to this date. how is it different? So either return daoowd or dont ask about molvi fazal. After-all you can’t have your cake and eat it too!
Today, we in Pakistan are sick of anyone who hint a conspiracy theory in Peshawar tragedy. We seem to be done with conspiracy theories… Jazak Allah, awesome but are we pakistanis willing to shed all conspiracy theories about 911 and mumbai 2008 blasts as well which we believed so passionately? After-all you can’t have your cake and eat it too!
there are few other points as well but lets start here. Of-course open for discussion but in a civilized manner please. thx
I like to add to this that we never realized that suicide bombers kill innocent people till this cancer hit our land. We used to glorify the Palestinian suicide bombers without realizing that victim remain innocent even if they belong to Jewish faith
re: No Sir no...you can't have your cake and eat it too!
I like to add to this that we never realized that suicide bombers kill innocent people till this cancer hit our land. We used to glorify the Palestinian suicide bombers without realizing that victim remain innocent even if they belong to Jewish faith
Did you realize the US committed war crimes until after the second Iraq war? Not attacking you but just wanted to see if you considered it a possibility? The reason being the US has been committing war crimes since world war 2.
This thread is not about USA war crimes. It's about our sympathies and support to happenings around the world till the terror hits home. After that, we become the victim
re: No Sir no...you can't have your cake and eat it too!
This thread is not about USA war crimes. It's about our sympathies and support to happenings around the world till the terror hits home. After that, we become the victim
Yes it is. The reason being is that everybody thinks of their own people and not externals. You have access to US media, how many people did you see who said Pakistan deserved what it got after the Peshawar attack? A good many on US tv from what I saw.
The Daily Beast said it openly. So did the Washington Post with is article by Shashi Tharoor's son. Ishan Tharoor. So please don't give this victim mentality, because the US had the same thing after Sept 11. Why do they hate us? Remember that refrain? The first Iraq war, everybody supported the bombing of hospitals.
Now does it matter to an Iraqi that the US bombs a hospital or a Talib does? Nope. The hospital is still destroyed.
re: No Sir no...you can't have your cake and eat it too!
Yes it is. The reason being is that everybody thinks of their own people and not externals. You have access to US media, how many people did you see who said Pakistan deserved what it got after the Peshawar attack? A good many on US tv from what I saw.
The Daily Beast said it openly. So did the Washington Post with is article by Shashi Tharoor's son. Ishan Tharoor. So please don't give this victim mentality, because the US had the same thing after Sept 11. Why do they hate us? Remember that refrain? The first Iraq war, everybody supported the bombing of hospitals.
Now does it matter to an Iraqi that the US bombs a hospital or a Talib does? Nope. The hospital is still destroyed.
Zafra bhai..i am not sure i understand you correctly. Are you saying that 911 is a result of US war crimes and all the atrocities that it committed across the globe ? Kindly keep it simple.
re: No Sir no...you can't have your cake and eat it too!
Zafra bhai..i am not sure i understand you correctly. Are you saying that 911 is a result of US war crimes and all the atrocities that it committed across the globe ? Kindly keep it simple.
I am saying you are being hypocrites. The comment that Pakistanis did not realize suicide bombings killed civilians is like saying Americans didn't realize their army committed war crimes.
A quick question pheonix in the US how many people do you know that consider the deaths of afghan or iraqi civilians before the protection of their own country men?
re: No Sir no...you can't have your cake and eat it too!
I am saying you are being hypocrites. The comment that Pakistanis did not realize suicide bombings killed civilians is like saying Americans didn't realize their army committed war crimes.
A quick question pheonix in the US how many people do you know that consider the deaths of afghan or iraqi civilians before the protection of their own country men?
I dont think TLK said that we pakistanis didnt realize that Palestinians suicide bombs kill innocent civilians...we do realize that but i think his point was that we still glorify suicide bombs by Palestinians based on XYZ rationale...and now that we are experiencing those suicide bombs in our own country, we dont want any XYZ rationale from taliban apologists...that is hypocrisy. anyway, TLK can defend his own position plus i really dont want to convert this thread into Palestinian/israel issue. that is why i deliberately did not include them in my list.
On your second point, how is it relevant to OP? are you saying that we shd condemn terrorism in our country *unconditionally **but continue to have an *"intellectual discussion" **about terrorism elsewhere because that is what every country does?
thx
re: No Sir no...you can't have your cake and eat it too!
9/11 was despicable and killed thousands of innocent victims by the terrorists but than we had over 100,000 INNOCENTS killed by the same govt who wanted revenge against their innocents killed. Does two wrongs make right and why ignore those innocents killed in the name of war on terror. In that case they had their cake and also ate it. Everyone looks after their own interests why blame Pakistanis only. While talking about palestinian suicide bombers what about the masacre of innocent people in gaza carried out with the approval of west and particularly US. They are having their cake and eating it. again it is what is in your national interest.
If you want to condemn Pakistan than condemn all others as well.
re: No Sir no...you can't have your cake and eat it too!
One of the reasons is that Muslims (in general) do not think of non muslims as same as them. They believe that Allah created this world only for the followers of Mohammad (PBUH) so they (for the most part) do not consider any other culture, faith worth same as themselves. So if a non muslim dies in terrorist activities like 9/11 or 11/16 - Then they deserve it for not being muslims and this must be allah's azab for these people because of their liking for drinking alcohol, eating pork, wearing bikinis, living in a society where they are paying interests on loans etc etc.
re: No Sir no...you can't have your cake and eat it too!
One of the reasons is that Muslims (in general) do not think of non muslims as same as them. They believe that Allah created this world only for the followers of Mohammad (PBUH) so they (for the most part) do not consider any other culture, faith worth same as themselves. So if a non muslim dies in terrorist activities like 9/11 or 11/16 - Then they deserve it for not being muslims and this must be allah's azab for these people because of their liking for drinking alcohol, eating pork, wearing bikinis, living in a society where they are paying interests on loans etc etc.
We aren't Jews dude. That is what the Torah says not the Quran.
re: No Sir no...you can't have your cake and eat it too!
9/11 was despicable and killed thousands of innocent victims by the terrorists but than we had over 100,000 INNOCENTS killed by the same govt who wanted revenge against their innocents killed. Does two wrongs make right and why ignore those innocents killed in the name of war on terror. In that case they had their cake and also ate it. Everyone looks after their own interests why blame Pakistanis only. While talking about palestinian suicide bombers what about the masacre of innocent people in gaza carried out with the approval of west and particularly US. They are having their cake and eating it. again it is what is in your national interest.
If you want to condemn Pakistan than condemn all others as well.
OK - But this thread is to discuss Pakistani people and their attitude towards extremism in regards with above mentioned points, Isn't it?
re: No Sir no...you can't have your cake and eat it too!
I dont think TLK said that we pakistanis didnt realize that Palestinians suicide bombs kill innocent civilians...we do realize that but i think his point was that we still glorify suicide bombs by Palestinians based on XYZ rationale...and now that we are experiencing those suicide bombs in our own country, we dont want any XYZ rationale from taliban apologists...that is hypocrisy. anyway, TLK can defend his own position plus i really dont want to convert this thread into Palestinian/israel issue. that is why i deliberately did not include them in my list.
On your second point, how is it relevant to OP? are you saying that we shd condemn terrorism in our country *unconditionally **but continue to have an *"intellectual discussion" **about terrorism elsewhere because that is what every country does?
thx
How about this. Lets start off with something closer to home.
Do you agree that the US government committed war crimes in Iraq and Afghanistan? Do you believe it was justified?
Do you agree that the US indiscriminately killed civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan? Do you believe it was justified?
Do you agree the US committed war crimes in Libya? Do you think it was justified?
We will get to Pakistan when you answer these questions about the US. Because you have defended drone strikes when they have killed Pakistani civilians and engaged in "intellectual discussions" on such matters.
re: No Sir no...you can't have your cake and eat it too!
Where does in my post I am doubting anything in Quran?
I am referring to your accusation that Muslims believe this earth was made for them. It wasn't. Because we are taught at an early age that Jews and Christians are "people of the book" and we are permitted to marry them and various other social activities.
re: No Sir no...you can't have your cake and eat it too!
even the vilest of terrorist when asked will have a reason for what he did or wanted to do. does not mean we have to sympathize or agree and forgive, like it happens in 'society is to blame' bollywood movies.
If Arafat had accepted the deal decades ago (which by the way is what they are demanding now, approximately) how many lives could have been saved and how much development could have taken place? whether one thinks the reason for that refusal then was fear of peace by that militia or miscalculation, fact is a golden chance was let go.
Read Carlotta Gall's book. Had Pakistan cooperated and not played double games the war in Afghanistan would have been over in 2002 - How many lives would that have saved in AfPak? Instead whether it was due to the fear of peace on the part of Pak military or miscalculation, what should have been a small conflict escalated into a decade long war with Pakistanis 'serving' both sides and getting killed on both sides. Terrorist groups have been in the process hardened both materially and ideologically.
Nobody can eat and have the cake. Whether USA or Pakistan. But USA is mightier in every respect by orders of magnitude and rsik very little when they realize and reverse course. But Pakistan does not have that luxury - they have to start takin correct morally sound and sustainable decisions based on developmental goals and not on undeserved dreams such as leadership of ummah, parleys for Kashmir or Chinese surrogacy.
All this holds for India too - but there seems to be a bit more sanity there as the military knows its place.
re: No Sir no...you can't have your cake and eat it too!
even the vilest of terrorist when asked will have a reason for what he did or wanted to do. does not mean we have to sympathize or agree and forgive, like it happens 'society is to blame' bollywood movies.
If Arafat had accepted the deal decades ago (which by the way is what they are demanding now, approximately) how many lives could have been saved and how much development could have taken place? whether one things the reason for that refusal then was fear of peace by that militia or miscalculation, fact is a golden chance was let go.
Read Carlotta Gall's book. Had Pakistan cooperated and not played double games the war in Afghanistan would have been over in 2002 - How many lives would that have saved in AfPak? Instead whether it was due to the fear of peace on the part of Pak military or miscalculation, what should have been a small conflict escalated into a decade long war with Pakistanis 'serving' both sides and getting killed on both sides. Terrorist groups have been in the process hardened both materially and ideologically.
Nobody can eat and have the cake. Whether USA or Pakistan. But USA is mightier in every respect by orders of magnitude and rsik very little when they realize and reverse course. But Pakistan does not have that luxury - they have to start takin correct morally sound and sustainable decisions based on developmental goals and not on g*****ose dreams such as leadership of ummah, parleys for Kashmir or Chinese surrogacy.
All this holds for India too - but there seems to be a bit more sanity there as the military knows its place.
12 years later, Afghanistan is still a hellhole and the US is losing. So well done!
re: No Sir no...you can't have your cake and eat it too!
I am referring to your accusation that Muslims believe this earth was made for them. It wasn't. Because we are taught at an early age that Jews and Christians are "people of the book" and we are permitted to marry them and various other social activities.
However the "chosen" people believe otherwise.
Maybe I should have only written Pakistani People and not Muslims. As far as Pakistani's view of book of people and treatment of them by Pakistanis, that clause is mostly only invoked to imply HOW GREAT ISLAM IS or to emphasize that daughters/women of christians/jews are fair game/Halal for muslims. It does not even work/mentioned to support a muslim girl marrying jew.