NIC, NICOP, Pakistan Origin Card... Help!

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
21

Originally posted by Akif: *
**Fraudia, your comments carry more spite than reality. If you dont care whether you have the card or not, then the argument ends right there.*

so i cant have an opinion? nice.
point being you can not charge people differently for the same service.

** Dont get one, and neither can the Pak govt make you get one. But if you want to get one, then you must go by the rules outlined by the government. **

and rules get changed, and rules can be unfair. rules are not divine law and rules are not etched in stone.

*The argument is simple. Those who live overseas, choose to do so. If you want the facilities Pakistan offers, then you have to pay for whatever you are charged. *

right i can see writing on the wall already. overseas pakistanis pay a diff fees to get titles for property. They will be charged diff fees at the airport. sure..seems very equitable.

*And if you dont want to, then noone is forcing you. You are more than welcome to pay $40 to get ur $1000 value car registration renewed every year, and wince at having to pay $25 every 4 years for an ID card. *

its a matter of principle, not $25. when i pay for my car registration, i know I am paying at the same scale everyone else is paying at. They dont charge me more than ppl in a ghetto, or less than someone living in a mansion.

22

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Akif: *
You want the best of both the worlds. *

well surely nto the worst of both worlds :)

** I think, you being in the financial sector, should know better than me as to how much all those foreign exchange remittances help Pakistan. Pakistans foreign exchange reserves could be 8 billion, or could be 80 billion. It doesnt mean a lick if the state doesnt OWN that money. **

and the state does get to own a whole chunk of that money. the ratio of ppl who just have personal foriegn exchange acounts to those who send the foriegn exchage to theri families is much lower. when ppl send their families funds which the families get in rupees, who ends up with the foriegn exchange?

*National ID cards are a privilege for those who reside elsewhere, and are a right for those who reside in Pakistan. *

why? making such a statement is easy. explain why this statement means anything at all.

*If a person goes abroad with no intentions of staying there for good, then yes, he is entitled to the same benefits as a local Pakistani is. But if a person choose to make a foreign country his home, then he has made a choice. *

who knows, people go back after 30 years abroad. Surely we cant have a mind reader installed at airports which gauges your intentions. or arte we going to use lie detector tests on airports to see who is planning to come back and who is not? :) absurd thought

*I hope you know who this POC card is meant for. Pakistani foreigners, who have made a permanent home overseas. *

what is the definition of Pakistani Foriegners? what is someone has a base in Pakistan as well. what is "permanent" 5 years, 10 years, 20 years?

*Bottom line is, its a privilege for foreign based Pakistanis, and if they are going to wince at $25, something they throw away on dinners at the drop of a hat, then well, their priorities are downside up. *

why does it matter what one throws away at dinners? this is predetory pricing for same damn card. the issue with this is that its a troubling thought, because is this going to be followed with extra fees for real estate titles for expats, what about traffic tickets are going to be higher, because damn boy, you dunn live here, driving here is a privilege for you and here is a $50 ticket cuz thats what u would pay in the US.

Its not the $25 what bothers me, its the whole principle of the thing.

23

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by NYAhmadi: *
The problem is that Pakistan has its priorities assbackward. Overseas Pakistanis are seen as an easy prey who have little choice in the matter of going back to Pakistan. They have their roots their, their loved ones there. People who have their whole clans overseas wouldn’t go back even if you paid them a million dollars. The rampant corruption and fanaticism is what Pakistan should concentrate on working rather than pilfering money from oversea Pakistanis. Why the hell cant they finally implement some sort of Agricultural Tax that has been talked about for decades but nothing done about?

Until schmuks are incharge of running the country, I would rather pay bribe to get my ID card than to pay 25 bucks which I know will go in the corrupt General’s pockets or will go to make some nukes.

Akif, It is not a ‘Privilege’ to be Pakistani (local or overseas). People are born in that darn place and they feel attached to their homeland. Now people have guts to make regional affiliation as some sort of freaking gift from God. Privilege, my arse.
[/QUOTE]

NYA

I love you maaaaaaaaaaaaan!!!!!

24

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Akif: *
National ID cards are a privilege for those who reside elsewhere, and are a right for those who reside in Pakistan. If a person goes abroad with no intentions of staying there for good, then yes, he is entitled to the same benefits as a local Pakistani is. But if a person choose to make a foreign country his home, then he has made a choice.
[/QUOTE]

This whole argument is incorrect. As long as someone carries a Pakistani passport, he is a Pakistani citizen and should be treated the same, whereever he is.

If a person gives up his Pakistani citizenship, then its something else.

25

I dont know what all the squeaking is about. The card is not being thrust upon overseas Pakistanis. Its not a requirement. If the $25 bites you, dont get it. Its as simple as it is.
And NYA, the problem with Pakistani govt as defined by you is quite right, but the problem with pakistani people is, that when the govt goes face forward, our public decides to go assbackwards, as you defined it so eloquently.
*Until schmuks are incharge of running the country, I would rather pay bribe to get my ID card than to pay 25 bucks *
Well that is the kind of public approach that gives rise to such schmuks.

26

In context:

Until schmuks are incharge of running the country, I would rather pay bribe to get my ID card than to pay 25 bucks which I know will go in the corrupt General’s pockets or will go to make some nukes.<<<<<

Akif, I would rather pay bribe to a low level bureaucrat than having to see my hard earned money go to useless programs like building weapons of mass destruction or lining up the pockets of the Generals. If these two conditions are taken care of, I will be willing to pay 2,500 dollars for a lousy card that I don’t need. If the Pakistani government sees me as an easy prey, that’s what I object. All I was trying to say was that being Pakistani is not a privilege. If they expect me to pay that much, I want to see something in return, like building more schools and less missiles. We still have the lowest literacy rate in Asia. We come beneath Bhutan and Mongolia.

People being schmuk is no excuse for Military to rule the country.

27

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Akif: *
I dont know what all the squeaking is about. The card is not being thrust upon overseas Pakistanis. Its not a requirement. If the $25 bites you, dont get it. Its as simple as it is.
[/QUOTE]

You got it wrong again. It is infact "thrust" upon overseas Pakistanis because without this card they will not renew the passport. And without passport we can not travel anywhere. So its basically a requirement for all Pakistanis.

And since the government feels that it can use these overseas Pakistanis (in the words of Fraudia) as their "personal piggy bank", so they decided to milk them for as much as it can, hence the obnoxiously high fee and the discrepancy in fee between similar cards for those who are in Pakistan and those who are overseas.

I know, you can not do anything about this. I am just venting out my opinion and frustration at the fee structure of NADRA which unfairly targets the citizens of Pakistan overseas. I do believe it is totally unfair, and, in principle, it is faulty.

28

Originally posted by Akif: *
**I dont know what all the squeaking is about. The card is not being thrust upon overseas Pakistanis. Its not a requirement. If the $25 bites you, dont get it. Its as simple as it is. *

The squeaking is about the principle of te matter, whats next, You dont HAVE to buy property in Pakistan, but if you do since u are a foregn based pak, you hafta pay more for title fees? There is no logical basis for doing this. What people can and can not afford is not the question, otherwise they should give them away for free to bhangi and raddi walas and charge industrialists $10K for the card.

This not a graduated income tax (which sucks btw) but a simple damn card and you are charging different groups different prices.

How about pplin villages pay less, and damn those aga khanis are loaded they should pay more.

"its not a requirement"???

what rubbish. have you ever been stopped by police in Karachi and asked for identification? The amount of hassle they "try" to give to foriegn passport holders is well known. and if you are not a foreign passport holder, u need this dang card to have a valid Pakistani passport as Faisal has noted already.

I guess now with POC cards local police and assorted such idiots will have an easy way to figure out which asaami has a heavy wallet.

29

Fraudzie...I love you too.

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Principle of the matter matters to those who are going to have first hand experiences in Pakistan. If you must come to Pakistan, then you must have the card. Making smartass comments doesnt negate the concept that you are trying to oppose.

what rubbish. have you ever been stopped by police in Karachi and asked for identification?

I havent, but since I am in Pakistan, I carry my ID card, whatever it may have cost me to get it. If you want to avoid getting hassled, follow the letter of the law, and get a card, whatever the cost maybe. If the cost is a pain, then simply dont get it, but then you shouldnt squeak about how exorbitant the fee is, and at the same time dish out $25 for 3 cups of coffee at starbucks, which you surely would not, in Pakistan, since the same amount would buy you a dinner for 10 here.

Its become a convenient pasttime for folks to pick on the police, or other govt agencies in Pakistan, without making any positive effort for a contribution towards eradicating the smut that exists. Perhaps we should just begin with ourselves, and inculcate a sense of responsibility in ourselves, by following what the law tells us. And if we dont wish to follow it, then as an expat Pakistani, noone can force you to. As a resident Pakistani, the law enforcement can force you. So live with it.

31

Originally posted by Akif: *
**Principle of the matter matters to those who are going to have first hand experiences in Pakistan. If you must come to Pakistan, then you must have the card. *

and u must pay more than what the locals pay? whats next if u must come to pak then u must pay higher airport fees than locals, if you must buy somethign in pakistanb than u must pay a higher cost han locals.

*Making smartass comments doesnt negate the concept that you are trying to oppose. *

you have not explained how citizens could be treated differently for the same thing and how that is fair.

**I havent, but since I am in Pakistan, I carry my ID card, whatever it may have cost me to get it.

*If you want to avoid getting hassled, follow the letter of the law, and get a card, whatever the cost maybe. *

even if the cost is higher justbecause you happen to live or work overseas?

*If the cost is a pain, then simply dont get it, but then you shouldnt squeak about how exorbitant the fee is, and at the same time dish out $25 for 3 cups of coffee at starbucks, which you surely would not, in Pakistan, since the same amount would buy you a dinner for 10 here. *

dude, what the hell does purchasing power have to do with fees, why dont we charge the localindustrialists in pakistan $10K for the card then. this argument means nothing.

its has nothing to do with fees being exorbitant, but why are ppl being charged different fees to begin with. if everyone in pak pays $10o for it per year

*Perhaps we should just begin with ourselves, and inculcate a sense of responsibility in ourselves, by following what the law tells us. *

and in a democracy we can speak up if we dont like the law, u dont have to just take it lying down.

*And if we dont wish to follow it, then as an expat Pakistani, noone can force you to. As a resident Pakistani, the law enforcement can force you. So live with it. *

as an expat pakistani u can be forced to. or did u miss what faisal said about ppl with pak passports need this card. not all expats have other passports.

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*as an expat pakistani u can be forced to. or did u miss what faisal said about ppl with pak passports need this card. not all expats have other passports. *

I did not miss out on Faisals comment. I replied to it, which you missed.
Here it goes again. Expat Pakistanis fall into 2 categories...those who have gone abroad to earn easy money, and those who have gone abroad to make it their home. If you fall in the first category, you are NOT an immigrant in your host country. You are still a local Pakistani citizen. This category includes all H-1 visa holders, visit visa holders, business visa holders etc...in short, all non-immigrants. All such non-immigrants are entitled to get the 35 rupee card ID card.
If you fall into the immigrant category, eg, green card holders, etc, its then that you fall in a different category, ie, those who have chosen to make another country their home, but still wish to keep their affiliation to Pakistan intact. In such a case, you will obviously lose some of your rights and privileges. For such foreign based Pakistanis, an alternate ID card has been established for your ease. Now if that $25 seems too exorbitant, then well, thats the way it is.

It seems to me that this petty matter is being used more to satisfy personal grudges against the govt than focus on the actual issue. Rather than see what benefits the new system brings forth, this topic is being used to sway focus towards petty issues. First time Ive heard people wince using a few bucks as a pretense.

33

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Akif: *
Expat Pakistanis fall into 2 categories...those who have gone abroad to earn easy money, and those who have gone abroad to make it their home. If you fall in the first category, you are NOT an immigrant in your host country. You are still a local Pakistani citizen. This category includes all H-1 visa holders, visit visa holders, business visa holders etc...in short, all non-immigrants. All such non-immigrants are entitled to get the 35 rupee card ID card.
If you fall into the immigrant category, eg, green card holders, etc, its then that you fall in a different category, ie, those who have chosen to make another country their home, but still wish to keep their affiliation to Pakistan intact. In such a case, you will obviously lose some of your rights and privileges. For such foreign based Pakistanis, an alternate ID card has been established for your ease. Now if that $25 seems too exorbitant, then well, thats the way it is.
[/QUOTE]

I think you got it wrong once more. The greencard holders are not necessarily forsaking their Pakistani citizenship, but greencard is the only solution if you plan to work more than 6 years in the USA. A lot of greencard holders end up applying for US citizenship but a fair number also return back to Pakistan as they do not wish to live permanently in USA.

Lets not dwell on the intention of people (easy money and all such conjectures). Lets keep it simple. We have two kinds of Pakistanis. (1) Those that are still Pakistanis by virtue of carrying a green Pakistani passport, and (2) those that were originally Pakistanis but now carry a different citizenship.

Those that are still Pakistani citizens should all be treated equally, regardles of where they are. If you expect them to undertake a trip back to Pakistan (by paying close to $1000) just so they can get a Rs 35 card by March 31, 2003, then you are seriously mistaken. If all of them could afford to do this, I am sure they would. Right now, the government realizes their predicament and has decided to make the most of it, by offering them an identical card (with identical features and identical rights) at 50 times the normal fee. That is grossly unfair. If they don't get this card, they won't be able to renew their passports in future. So, they will be forced to get this card. Essentially all Pakistani passport holders/citizen should only have one kind of card. NICOP is a bad idea. The only two cards should have been CNIC and POC

In principle I agree that those that are not Pakistani citizens now, should be given a different kind of card which only shows their Pakistani origin but does not claim them to be Pakistani citizens. This card will allow them easy method of investing in Pakistan (real estate and what not). Normally it would seem common sense to make this process as inviting as possible to allow for more investment in the country, but that seems too high an expectation from the policy-makers.

34

:hula: I applied some one year ago for the POC/NICOP but still have not received the card. My 115$ :hula:

35

I can assure you there are more than just "2" categories.

*those who have gone abroad to earn easy money, *

easy? sure..ask anyone how easy it is. who so you figure when u say is making easy money?

maybe thats the mentality, ppl abroad are making easy money, lets get some from them.

*If you fall into the immigrant category, eg, green card holders, etc, its then that you fall in a different category, ie, those who have chosen to make another country their home, but still wish to keep their affiliation to Pakistan intact. *

How about dual citizens who are now living in Pakistan, or visit pakistan annually. How many ppl living in Pakistan actually hold dual citizenship? I know quite a few.

*In such a case, you will obviously lose some of your rights and privileges. For such foreign based Pakistanis, an alternate ID card has been established for your ease. Now if that $25 seems too exorbitant, then well, thats the way it is. *

as i just showed you earlier, the entire basis for this division is lame.

*It seems to me that this petty matter is being used more to satisfy personal grudges against the govt than focus on the actual issue. Rather than see what benefits the new system brings forth, this topic is being used to sway focus towards petty issues. First time Ive heard people wince using a few bucks as a pretense. *

you can hear people wince? I usually can see them wince. hey tons of things can be looked at from a "benefit" perspective. someoen can use the type of argument u have made to support internment of muslims into camps in the US. hey greater good, they can "choose" not to live in US etc etc.

I have no grudge against the government that is not justified. But this issue has nothing to do with any grudges against any entity. It simply comes down to a lame policy.

I have not heard of guidelines of what makes a person a temporary expat versus a permanent residents oemwhere else. I knwo of people who went back to pakistan after 5-6-7-8-9 even 20 years. they had all intentions to go back even if they had other citizenship, on the othe rhand, I know of pakistanis on Iqamas in saudi arabia who have been workign there for 20 years.

the fact of the matter is there is no basis for it. You can support it all you want. It makes no sense.

36

Aside from the ‘cost’ debate, the other angle we need to look at it is why there should even be ‘cost’ associated with something like an ID card? Only some thickhead would come up with this idea, and in my experience, Pakistani government is filled with idiots of the highest degrees.

A national ID card is not something that government should charge citizens for. It is not a privilege (like a Driver’s license, for example), but something that is required for all citizens to carry. I can support charging (however reluctantly) if one loses the card, and needs a replacement.

It is like Army asking it’s soldiers, now that you have joined the Army, give us 20 bucks so we can issue you a card.

One more thing. The military morons pay half-price for using public transportation in Pakistan, including the Trains and PIA. Now that makes sense. If they started paying for services like other citizens, that might make me change my mind.

37

Charging people for their patriotism might end up counter-productive in the end.

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I have just read in Pakistani Tiger's post (need to verify) that the fee for the card is dropped from $25 to $15, and it will be valid for 10 years instead of 3.

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I am studying in Britian and hold a British Passport. But i got my card made from NADRA for only rs:60/- so i really dont understand why you all cant do that. by the way did you know some nations ask their ex-pats to enter national service as a way of showing their loyalty and patriotism, so i guess paying something like £70.00 is a very smal price considering i cant even get a decent pair of shoes for that much money.

Pakistan Zindabad

Dont ask what your nation can do for you, but what you can do for your nation.

40

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Faisal: *
I have just read in Pakistani Tiger's post (need to verify) that the fee for the card is dropped from $25 to $15, and it will be valid for 10 years instead of 3.
[/QUOTE]

Brother Faisal,

This was mentioned by PM Jamali in UAE to Pakistani Community.

I sincerely hope, this is not a lip service from Mir Sahib. :)