NIC, NICOP, Pakistan Origin Card... Help!

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
1

Ok guys, leave it to Pakistan to make things complicated. Wouldn’t it be simple to have 1 card for all eligible pakistanis? resident or abroad? Just like all normal countries do?
A few questions if anyone had any recent experience. I have been to the site but maybe I missed these questions, if anyone can help.

  1. Whats the difference between POC and NICOP???
    Which should I apply for? being a resident canadian of pakistani descent?

  2. Why wouldn’t people just apply for the new NIC card while they are in Pakistan (visiting or getting a relative to do it) when its only like 30 rupees I heard (Yes, the new computerized ones!). Why would they pay $100+ US dollars to their embassy for an NICOP or POC? Aren’t they essentially the same card with the same rights and privileges?

  3. I heard the NIC card is valid for like 10 years or so, while the NICOP and POC are only valid for 5?? huh???

Your thoughts please…

Salaam

2

I agree..its a stupid idea, in fact the POC might cause more problems, because most local officals like Tehsildars and police might not have been informed about the card and might just arrest you or create problems for you!

Lord Nazir Ahmed in the UK said he's not going to visit Pakistan in protest against the POC..despite how much he cares for the country and will still defend it.

3

NADRA is issuing two kinds of cards: POC (Pakistan Origin Card) and NICOP (National Identity Card for Overseas Pakistanis). I just renewed the passport and with the new passport our Consulate in Los Angeles very considerately included the form for NICOP, and reminded me that the old NIC (National Identity Cards) will be deemed cancelled after March 31, 2003!!!.

Now, I have no problems getting a new NICOP, except it has an expiry period, which just means its considered a regular source of income. If you all remember the old regular NIC issued in Pakistan had no expiry period. You get them once and you are set for life. This one has a graduated scale of $25 for 3 years. If you want it for 9 years validity, you will have to fork out $75 bucks.

The worst thing (atleast for me) is that it is no longer required only for people above 18 years of age. This one is for each child as well. So, add up all the kids and dang, its some serious money we are talking about every few years.

For more information, check NADRA’s website

4

The new cards, NIC, POC and NICOP, all incorporate vast security features, which have cost the country a fair amount of money. These security features will help in preventing a lot of frauds in the present and the future, which include, but are not limited to banking frauds, and voting frauds. These cards also carry additional benefits for overseas Pakistanis, which wouldnt be available to them as a non-pakistani foreigner.
An expense of $25 per person isnt a lot, considering one can spend twice that much per person on a single family trip to a 6 flags park:)

And Lard Nazir is an idiot for having said that, if indeed he said that. If he refuses to visit Pakistan because of this, then I hope Pakistan forbids him from entering, whenever he does decide to come.

5

Akif, I agree that these cards have all sorts of wonderful security features, but these all contribute to the higher cost of the cards. So, its ok that these cards are not as cheap as the old yellow NIC. Everyone is willing to pay a reasonable little extra for such a card. Its fine.

But why make them expirable? So, now all passport-carrying Pakistanis have to renew their passports AND renew these cards, so its a double whammy. They could have just integrated passports with the cards, so as long as your passport is not expired you can show the passport and the NICOP together.

Plus having this card for kids? Like these kids will be buying property or something? Why can't the good ol' Form 'B' continue to work for their passport renewal?

Actually, I think the great minds working in NADRA and sitting in Islamabad think that all overseas Pakistanis are millionaires or something so bleed them for as much as possible. This is quite unfortunate.

6

Faisal...
expirable, because God knows, I dont look a lick like my picture on my original ID card (I know im giving away my age). If you ever get a chance to scrutinize the ID cards of the 75+ crowd in line to vote in an election, you will find that you are not able to match a single person to his ID photo. So a 4-5 year renewal is very appropriate.

Regarding kids, it was necessary. I have known many cases from the Bhutt/Sharif govts, where people bought properties in their kids names. In one case, a highly placed bearucrat had bought properties in the names of his extended family living in the UK. That property was bought in the names of kids as young as 8. So accountability is needed for each and everyone.

Plus Faisal, I dont think that an expense of $200 (for an exaggerated family of 8!) every 3 years can be considered bleeding. Its true that overseas Pakistanis can afford this amount very easily, and one doesnt have to be a millionaire for it.

7

If someone wants to buy properties in the names of their kids, by all means make them ‘buy’ this card, but to force this card as a condition for future passport renewal is unreasonable.

The fee for this card is already excessive. I don’t mind paying extra for security features and yada yada.. but its unfair to treat overseas Pakistanis differently from those in Pakistan. Those in Pakistan pay Rs 35 for CNIC (with the same security features etc) or maximum Rs 140 for renewal. Ok, charge the same fee from overseas, and everyone will be happy. Why charge them multiple times the actual cost/price of these cards? A fee of US$1 (for new card) or US$3 (for renewal) is what it should have been.

If the renewal fee of passport is rationally converted to a foreign currency, these cards should also be uniformally priced for inside Pakistan and outside Pakistan.

In my view, all Pakistani citizens (whether they live in Pakistan or abroad), as long as they are Pakistani-passport carriers they should have the same card and the same fee. If someone has now a different nationality and still wants a POC, yeah, it should be a different card, but the fee should remain equitable. The current fee structure is basically nothing but blackmail/price gouging/heavily unfavorable for Pakistani citizens who happen to be outside Pakistan.

ps. This is an old article in Dawn newspaper, but summarizes the frustrations of people with NADRA’s give-me-the-money approach to issuing cards. http://www.dawn.com/2002/03/15/nat23.htm

8

Akif said

*And Lard Nazir is an idiot for having said that, if indeed he said that. If he refuses to visit Pakistan because of this, then I hope Pakistan forbids him from entering, whenever he does decide to come. *

Why? because he echoes the sentiments of many Pakistanis who live overseas? He has a point and I admire him being open about it, otherwise I doubt it hurts his pocket book, but not everyone overseas can afford every expense that comes their way.

Its a matter of principle, which I think faisal has adressed quite well

quoting faisal..

**The fee for this card is already excessive. I don't mind paying extra for security features and yada yada.. but its unfair to treat overseas Pakistanis differently from those in Pakistan. Those in Pakistan pay Rs 35 for CNIC (with the same security features etc) or maximum Rs 140 for renewal. Ok, charge the same fee from overseas, and everyone will be happy. Why charge them multiple times the actual cost/price of these cards?
If the renewal fee of passport is rationally converted to a foreign currency, these cards should also be uniformally priced for inside Pakistan and outside Pakistan.

as long as they are Pakistani-passport carriers they should have the same card and the same fee. If someone has now a different nationality and still wants a POC, yeah, it should be a different card, but the fee should remain equitable **

my take..

well said Faisal. Only catch I would add to that is cost of processing these cards in other countries may be different i.e. the amount of money the govt is forking out for someguy to do the paperwork and make these cards in UK or US maybe different than what the guy earns in Pakistan.

However would that mean a diff price in each country? I dunno. I still think that the disparity in fees is excessive and not explained well.

9

Fraudia.

The overseas consulates are saying that it takes 12 weeks to process the application for the NICOP/POC. Why? Its a safe bet that all cards will continue to be made in Pakistan.

So, yeah, it might incur extra costs sending those cards from Pakistan to all these different places, but I really doubt it will cost our NADRA US$24 to mail a card from Islamabad to the Consulate in Los Angeles. If they send through bulk mail (many cards in one package) it should add little more than a few cents per card.

By the way, 12 weeks processing time means, start applying right now :)

10

Originally posted by Faisal: *
**I really doubt it will cost our NADRA US$24 to mail a card from Islamabad to the Consulate in Los Angeles. If they send through bulk mail (many cards in one package) it should add little more than a few cents per card. *

even if it is a few dollars more for shipping and handling, which can be adjusted by region, why not do it. you know why..foriegn mulk mein paisa darakht par laga hota hai, we can get as much of it from overseas pakistanis as we want..thats teh type of mentality that is at play.

*By the way, 12 weeks processing time means, start applying right now :) *

hell with that, have someone apply on your behalf in pakistan. just send them a pic. pay shipping and handling and the money that u save, give it to some worthy cause.

11

I am not sure what is the level of "corruption" in issuance of CNIC right now, but when I visited back in June/July, everyone, meaning *EVERY*one had to go to their center to get a picture taken right there which will be used on the card.

There is no provision of getting an CNIC by submitted a photograph.

Dunno how that works for the VIP's, though. I am sure they'd have found some way around it. Or maybe they just get expedited treatment at the centre. Point being, you can't send ur pic over to get the card. Atleast not that I know of. Those in Pakistan must surely know more. :)

12

Originally posted by Faisal: *
**I am not sure what is the level of "corruption" in issuance of CNIC right now, but when I visited back in June/July, everyone, meaning *EVERY*one had to go to their center to get a picture taken right there which will be used on the card. *

thats what they would like you to think..

There is no provision of getting an CNIC by submitted a photograph.

*does not mean u cant have "exceptions" if you know what I mean.
Point being, you can't send ur pic over to get the card. Atleast not that I know of. Those in Pakistan must surely know more. :) *

"can't"??? its "done" yaaar...been there done that. so much so for security eh?

13

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Fraudz: *
Why? because he echoes the sentiments of many Pakistanis who live overseas*

No, but because he has chosen to shun the country, just because one of his personal demands is not being met. If a person has a beef with the government, take it out, and Im all out for that. But if someone makes statements like, Im not going to visit Pakistan, then I say, Pakistan is better off without such folks. Nazir needs to show some maturity and professionalism in the remarks he makes. What he or other british pakistanis feel about the few bucks in fees has nothing to do with one visiting the country.

Faisal......you mean to say that since local Pakistanis are paying 35 rupees for the card, overseas Pakistanis should have to pay no more than 35/58 = 60 cents?

If overseas Pakistanis wish to pay the same amounts for Pakistani facilities as local Pakistanis do, then perhaps overseas Pakistanis should begin paying taxes to the country as well, dont you think?

As far as kids having cards is concerned, I dont know what the big fuss is about. You pay to get passports renewed every 5 years, you pay to get your drivers license renewed every 4 years, registration every year, rent every month, and how this puny charge factors in and causes foreign based Pakistanis to bleed is beyond me. There are logical and valid reasons for these laws to have been put into place. God knows local Pakistanis paying many of these high fees in Rupees havent complained half as much as have overseas Pakistanis earning in dollars and pounds.

hell with that, have someone apply on your behalf in pakistan. just send them a pic. pay shipping and handling and the money that u save, give it to some worthy cause.

And this is the kind of 'fraud' the new security features are weeding out. The new cards are computerized, and one needs to be present in order to have their picture taken. and if someone did get you a card made that way, then you got defrauded. And if it was not a fraud, then its sad that we ourselves refuse to let go of these slipholes, and then blame the government for corruption.

14

Nazir Ahmeds comments were said I think in ager because he had repeatedly asked the govt to drop the idea and not discourage overseas Pakistanis. Consider this:
1) The POC doesn't give you the right to vote at any level
2) Police might stop you because they haven't seen it before
3) Courts and revenue offices might not accept it either

That's a pretty big price to pay, and the benefits?

15

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Akif: *
Faisal......you mean to say that since local Pakistanis are paying 35 rupees for the card, overseas Pakistanis should have to pay no more than 35/58 = 60 cents?
[/QUOTE]

Exactly! You said the cards have great security features, hence they are expensive. Ok, agreed! Then these NICOP/POC have the same security features as CNIC so why charge so much extra for NICOP. One thing is clear, its not for no security features... its just whimsical to get as much money as possible.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Akif: *
If overseas Pakistanis wish to pay the same amounts for Pakistani facilities as local Pakistanis do, then perhaps overseas Pakistanis should begin paying taxes to the country as well, dont you think?

[/QUOTE]

Thats no argument. Taxes being paid and fee charged for issuing a national identity card are two completely different things. There is simply no relation to them. You think the government of Pakistan is issuing these cards to local Pakistanis by subsidizing them from our taxes? I don't think so. These cards are priced in Pakistan to recoup their cost. Overseas they are priced to fetch a handsome profit. Thats all. I have worked for the companies who actually manufacture these security cards (like credit cards, airport entrance cards etc) and the actual cost to manufacture and issue a personalized picture card is hardly 25-30 cents per card, on a volume basis.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Akif: *
As far as kids having cards is concerned, I dont know what the big fuss is about. You pay to get passports renewed every 5 years, you pay to get your drivers license renewed every 4 years, registration every year, rent every month, and how this puny charge factors in and causes foreign based Pakistanis to bleed is beyond me. There are logical and valid reasons for these laws to have been put into place. God knows local Pakistanis paying many of these high fees in Rupees havent complained half as much as have overseas Pakistanis earning in dollars and pounds.
[/QUOTE]

You remember the earnings part, why do you forget the spending part? huh? If they earn in dollars and also spend in dollars! See, this is the wrong impression for people in Pakistan.. that those out in the West are collecting dollars from the trees. I have seen very few people who actually save a decent amount, its mostly jitna aaya utna kharch ho giya. Anyway, thats a long debate.. point is, the Form 'B' never expired, the old NIC never expired (and these two documents are used to get your Pakistani passport renewed for minors and adults respectively) .. those who want to travel internationally do get passports and do get it renewed every five years (and pay approx the same fee for passport as those in Pakistan pay), why burden them with another card with limited life and an unusually high fee every few years? Especially when this fee has no relation to the cost of the card, as is evidenced from the low fee for the same kinda card issued for those in Pakistan.

16

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Akif: *
And this is the kind of 'fraud' the new security features are weeding out. The new cards are computerized, and one needs to be present in order to have their picture taken. and if someone did get you a card made that way, then you got defrauded. And if it was not a fraud, then its sad that we ourselves refuse to let go of these slipholes, and then blame the government for corruption.
[/QUOTE]

I could'nt care less whether I have either card. The fact of the matter is cards are being made in the manner I described. They would not get made that way if the authorities did not allow it.

Overseas Pakistanis are not the government's personal Piggy bank. Or am I getting some more rights than locals when I visit because I am paying more for identical services?

why dont they start charging overseas pakistanis more tax on their property or on their holdings in pakistan...oh wait they screwed us over once already by converting foriegn exchange accounts to ruppee accounts and then "offering: you to buy dollars at an infalted rate.

oh hell with it, foriegn pakistanis have too much money yaaaaaar, lets milk em whenever and whereever we can. foriegn mein toh paisa darakht par ugta hai naa..

17

*Exactly! *

You must be kidding Faisal.

Its a matter of common sense. You live in a country, you reap the benefits the country has to offer. You dont live in the country, you have to pay extra to reap the benefits that country has to offer.

*See, this is the wrong impression for people in Pakistan.. that those out in the West are collecting dollars from the trees. *

No Faisal, I dont have any such impression. I can safely say I have spent more time abroad, as well as in the US, than you have. And I have no such illusions. You are telling me stuff that I knew a long time ago. But then its you who chose to go abroad. The pak govt did not send you off, did they? You chose to go, for what reason? For economical benefits of course. And now, when its payback time, money isnt growing on trees anymore. You cannot flipflop in your approach to the same issue in different spheres of life.

Fraudia, your comments carry more spite than reality. If you dont care whether you have the card or not, then the argument ends right there. Dont get one, and neither can the Pak govt make you get one. But if you want to get one, then you must go by the rules outlined by the government.

Regarding past excesses of foreign currency accounts being converted over, that was wrong, and was done by a corrupt administration. BUt that is old news. Come out of it already. We are 2 administrations removed from that time.

The argument is simple. Those who live overseas, choose to do so. If you want the facilities Pakistan offers, then you have to pay for whatever you are charged. And if you dont want to, then noone is forcing you. You are more than welcome to pay $40 to get ur $1000 value car registration renewed every year, and wince at having to pay $25 every 4 years for an ID card.

18

*Its a matter of common sense. You live in a country, you reap the benefits the country has to offer. You dont live in the country, you have to pay extra to reap the benefits that country has to offer. *

Tell me again, what benefits are we talking about? There are citizens of Pakistan living in Pakistan and there are citizens of Pakistan elsewhere in the world. You are saying to discriminate against those who don't live in Pakistan because they are not using the resources of Pakistan? These Pakistanis already pay the requisite fee to get a passport, they remit precious foreign exchange back to Pakistan, and they don't even use any resources of Pakistan.

*And now, when its payback time, money isnt growing on trees anymore. You cannot flipflop in your approach to the same issue in different spheres of life. *

Why does anyone chooses to live out of Pakistan is entirely a personal decision, and is not under discussion. What I am saying is merely a matter of principle. All Pakistanis, in Pakistan and out of Pakistan should be treated in a similar way. Infact there shouldn't have been an NICOP in the first place. All citizens should be issued the same card (CINC) and all non-citizens, who have Pakistani origin should have a different card (POC). Fee structure should be equitable in both cases.

Governments should not discriminate based on where their citizens live. To get a new passport in Pakistan, the urgent fee is Rs 4,000. In US, it is $120. Notice how close it is? These documents are not what you call "pay back" time. These are issued because we are the citizens of the country. Not based on our residential status. I can agree they can add a bit extra for the shipping back and forth and expense of higher-paid consulate staff in the foreign country. But the 24 times extra fee for NICOP is too much.

Your argument can only hold some weight if taxes paid by people in Pakistan were subsidizing the cost of the cards. I don't think so. As I said earlier, these cards don't cost much more than a few cents on a bulk basis.

And lets not even start on how over-seas Pakistanis contribute towards the national economy. Every few days when you hear that the government's foreign exchange reserve have increased to such and such level ... a substantial portion of it is due to the remittances by overseas Pakistanis. Recall all Pakistanis back to Pakistan and see how the FE reserve dwindle down in a short span of time. That is because the people in Pakistan import goods and services much more than they export out. We all know that. If at all, Pakistan needs more people to move out and earn salaries elsewhere and remit FE back home.

19

You want the best of both the worlds.

You live and work in the US. You reap the benefits of the US economy while paying the US govt taxes. That status in the US entitles you to most, if not all benefits that are accorded to US citizens. Now you want Pakistan to do the same for you, even though you are not living there. I think, you being in the financial sector, should know better than me as to how much all those foreign exchange remittances help Pakistan. Pakistans foreign exchange reserves could be 8 billion, or could be 80 billion. It doesnt mean a lick if the state doesnt OWN that money.

National ID cards are a privilege for those who reside elsewhere, and are a right for those who reside in Pakistan. If a person goes abroad with no intentions of staying there for good, then yes, he is entitled to the same benefits as a local Pakistani is. But if a person choose to make a foreign country his home, then he has made a choice.
I hope you know who this POC card is meant for. Pakistani foreigners, who have made a permanent home overseas.

Bottom line is, its a privilege for foreign based Pakistanis, and if they are going to wince at $25, something they throw away on dinners at the drop of a hat, then well, their priorities are downside up.

20

The problem is that Pakistan has its priorities assbackward. Overseas Pakistanis are seen as an easy prey who have little choice in the matter of going back to Pakistan. They have their roots their, their loved ones there. People who have their whole clans overseas wouldn’t go back even if you paid them a million dollars. The rampant corruption and fanaticism is what Pakistan should concentrate on working rather than pilfering money from oversea Pakistanis. Why the hell cant they finally implement some sort of Agricultural Tax that has been talked about for decades but nothing done about?

Until schmuks are incharge of running the country, I would rather pay bribe to get my ID card than to pay 25 bucks which I know will go in the corrupt General’s pockets or will go to make some nukes.

Akif, It is not a ‘Privilege’ to be Pakistani (local or overseas). People are born in that darn place and they feel attached to their homeland. Now people have guts to make regional affiliation as some sort of freaking gift from God. Privilege, my arse.