Re: New Way of Pressure and Destroying ..
^ there is no such thing as "Muslims to take on Israel". Which Mulsims? Egypts, Iran, Saudis, Kuwaitis, Pakistanis? who? whether you call it bravery or cowardice, facts are facts and empty rhetoric is just that.
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i call it cowardice
facts are indeed facts, and this era is no empty rhetoric
iran is well and truely involved. saudi is finding it hard to ignore. next election will bring egypt back in. kuwaitis hate israel too, pakistan official line is tame but you gotta be out of it to not see the wishes of the people.
i do like to think all muslim nations have a duty to water down the power imbalance, but not all are needed. not everyone is required to focus in this direction. although it'll be in their best interest to do so
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btw i dont think you realise the tug pakistan has had with israel in the past on a security services level.
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[QUOTE]
So tell me to get rid of Israel there are only two ways, population exodus or annihilation and either is not a feasible choice for an existing state. And you still think that anyone will yield to that?
[/QUOTE]
Than there is no solution, the last possible solution would be if Palestinians were accepted as equals, no longer oppressed, and lived in the democracy of Israel side by side, but one problem than it would be majority Muslim state.
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this solution is acceptable, peacefull and needs to be put forward alot more whether the israellis or worldwide jews like it or not.
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Would the government be secular or include Jews?
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palistinians should aceept what they have, love israel and all will be well
great, except this isnt what the palistinians, iran, myself or hundreds of millions of others were hoping for.
theres actually only one way ahead
for muslims to take on israel, accept the challenge not the current plight
why do you think israel and gang are doing their utmost to stop this right now, because the whole episode is at that most important juncture where any further development would start eating away at israelli,US power
if youve not got bottle for the future, then thats your problem. dont encourage cowardice to others. palestine will demand its rights, iran wont be the only nation willing to take on israel, US gang. peaceloving arabs with trademark muslim mindset of not building military stockpiles and ambitions have tried in the past and failled. they get my full respect
everyone should choose which side of the fence they sit on, if palistinian then say it clearly. if you prefer the borders as they are today then you are on the israelli side, if you think palestinians are terrorists you are an honoury israelli and just like them have no compassion.
israel knows what it must do, until it does its full steam ahead for muslims.
So your solution is to kill Israeli's until they tuck tail and run. And you call this a solution. Is there anybody here who can justify why Jews have no right to have a state of their own, if the Palestinians do then so do they?
Why can't we admit that our Arab leaders were stupid and made enemies out of prospective friends. It was the Brits who really caused the problem and they laid their vengeance on the Israeli's.
A minority is always more defensive than it needs to be, its the majority that needs to soothe and allay their fears. The Arabs never wanted coexistence with them. If they really do then why don't we see it happening. Just because we are muslim does not mean we are always right.
Israel commits atrocities in the midst of the Arab heartland and all the Arab states do is send farts to the poor Palestinians. If they care so much then let them go to war. Or maybe they have realised its better to live in peace than at war however the dumb Palestinian politicians cannot swallow that yet. If you want to fight a war then establish a proper premises for it, leave no excuse on your side.
I am absolutely not condoning Israeli atrocities on Palestinians or the way they are now living however they brought it on themselves and no one is going to change it for them if they do not change it themselves. The problem is there is no majority streamline thinking of Palestinians. They are quartered and sectioned into their own political ideologies and lack unity amongst themselves. No one wants to sacrifice for the greater good of their people then this is what becomes of it.
And look at our lame muslim crowd who keep egging them to continue to fight instead of telling them, establish a state for yourself with whatever you can for now and then we will economically help you sustain and grow it peacefully. No one has to die no more or starve or watch his house get demolished or imprisoned. Half of the Arab states do not want to make peace with Israel and the Palestinians are paying the price for their political road blocks and international agendas.
Re: New Way of Pressure and Destroying ..
Vroom, I disagree since your view is too exaggerated. Iran is standing up to the US but is walking a very thin line with Russia and EU. Saudis are dependent upon the US military and commercial orgs. I may be wrong but hasn't Kuwait recognized Israel (not sure) but somehow I don't see them in the same level. Egypt still gets a lot of money from the US. For the very same resons, however much they may claim to hate the US Egypt and Pakistan are contained in this matter.
BTW non of this is new and same condition prevails for a decade+. So why do you think anything has changed? The only material change is that W has managed to inflame many a communities but that is a short term issue that has only increased extremist recruitment.
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BTW non of this is new and same condition prevails for a decade+. So why do you think anything has changed? The only material change is that W has managed to inflame many a communities but that is a short term issue that has only increased extremist recruitment.
there may be a lack of will by some countries to take on the task or take a two faced stance such as pakistan. i can tell you now that israel represents a certain amount of risk to pakistan. i dont blame pakistan or anyone else(egypt, jordan, saudi) for chickening out somewhat. 'somewhat' ie not totally and if countries such as pakistan make a move it does take chunks out of the opposition, especially one who relies on a power imbalance to sustain its policies. those closest to the area have already tried and lost. tried because they believed and lost because they hadnt reallised the level of planning against them.
if you look at the countries supplied by aq khan, you can draw your own conclusions. you can also draw from who was effected by saddams WMD's?! in M east.
iran already has enough cluster droplets to carpet the whole of israel. this is a temporary counter until nukes can be readied. im sure you understand the gravity of this situation. israel at the moment can afford to raise and maintain high tension. today is the highest temperature in m east ever. there are no exaggerations. people just dontlike headache reminders.
if iran succeeds the floodgates will open. the israellis will go to great depths in the near future to stop this. iraq or whatever is left of it will be back also without doubt. the iraqis now are heavilly influenced by iran, irans policy will be iraqs policy especially if the cut and run plan is implemented. and i hope you know irans policy. it will sort out this mess
the purpose of muslim nations aquiring their own weapons is not to overpower the west inc israel but to hold a level of detterence. to hold the same threat as others. only then can we expect palestine to be sorted and for the west to stop meddling in other muslim countries.
the power imbalance is so wide im not suprised westernised desis are calling for israel to be recognised without making peace with palistinians first. are you arabs in camouflage?
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Some of my colleagues here are proposing absurd solutions for Israel-Palestine Conflict. I thought I should clear it up, what exactly Paletinians are demanding at this stage:
Hamas’s Stance:
At best, Hamas would be ready to accept the Arab Peace Initiative formulated on March 28, 2002 during the Arab League Beirut Summit: full normalization of relations with Israel in exchange for Israeli withdrawal to the 1967 internationally recognized borders, implying Israeli evacuation of the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, east Jerusalem, the Golan Heights and the return of all Palestinian refugees and their descendants.
Arab Peace Initiative:
The proposal, from Saudi Arabia (itself something of a novelty, as the Saudis usually prefer to be less forward on the world diplomatic stage) stated that should Israel:
1- withdraw from all territories occupied since the 1967 Arab-Israeli war,
2- provide a just solution to the Palestinian refugee problem, and
3- recognize the establishment of a sovereign and independent Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza Strip
then the Arab countries would in turn recognize Israel, enter into peace agreements with it, and establish normal relations with it.
So the real bone of contention now is illegal settlements in the West Bank, East Jerusalem, Golan Heights and a just solution for the Palestinian refugees.
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???
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I think many have failed to realize the reason Israel does not want withdraw is because no one is willing to guarantee its safety. We all know the Hamas charter. Will you want to live with a neighbor who wants to annihilate you? Israel has been in 3 full scale wars with the surrounding Arab states, sorry but Israel is a befitting enemy for Arab treachery. The Arab refugee problem is no problem if the Arab countries grant Palestinian refugees equal citizen rights. They don’t do it to keep the issue alive. This is how they treat their own Arab bretheren. Banking their political agendas on their plight.
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Wow! What a concept!
People can move mountains through non-violent means. Arabs haven't moved a mole hill in 50 years of violence, you think they'd learn.
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if you look at the countries supplied by aq khan, you can draw your own conclusions. you can also draw from who was effected by saddams WMD's?! in M east.
iran already has enough cluster droplets to carpet the whole of israel. this is a temporary counter until nukes can be readied. im sure you understand the gravity of this situation. israel at the moment can afford to raise and maintain high tension. today is the highest temperature in m east ever. there are no exaggerations. people just dontlike headache reminders.
if iran succeeds the floodgates will open. the israellis will go to great depths in the near future to stop this. iraq or whatever is left of it will be back also without doubt. the iraqis now are heavilly influenced by iran, irans policy will be iraqs policy especially if the cut and run plan is implemented. and i hope you know irans policy. it will sort out this mess
the purpose of muslim nations aquiring their own weapons is not to overpower the west inc israel but to hold a level of detterence. to hold the same threat as others. only then can we expect palestine to be sorted and for the west to stop meddling in other muslim countries.
the power imbalance is so wide im not suprised westernised desis are calling for israel to be recognised without making peace with palistinians first. are you arabs in camouflage?
And you think the area will be very habitable after getting nuked. Now that is one solution that totally renders occupation over there inept, through it does it for both, Israeli and Palestinian. Its more of a deterrent to pursue a conventional war.
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if anyone here is happy to let israel be the dominant force in the middle east and cast a shadow over the muslim world then go ahead support the non militarisation of islamic countries.
the israelli issue has now evolved to two seperate issues.
primarily the palestine issue everyone is so aware of and for which the saudi proposal seems acceptable enough
secondly the threat israel offers to many other countries. iran and israel will clash at some point if iran dont build up their military to a detterent level.
i suppose some of you here wish to see iran cleaned up, i'll take the liberty of assuming your support for the cleaning up of iraq too. and so on to... idiots in lebanon deserved it also eh? kidnapping innocent soldiers like that! syria should stop meddling in lebanese affairs or you lot will bomb them aswell.
Re: New Way of Pressure and Destroying ..
the israelli issue has now evolved to two seperate issues. primarily the palestine issue everyone is so aware of and for which the saudi proposal seems acceptable enough secondly the threat israel offers to many other countries. iran and israel will clash at some point if iran dont build up their military to a detterent level.
i suppose some of you here wish to see iran cleaned up, i'll take the liberty of assuming your support for the cleaning up of iraq too. and so on to... idiots in lebanon deserved it also eh? kidnapping innocent soldiers like that! syria should stop meddling in lebanese affairs or you lot will bomb them aswell.
See this is what I mean. If you give proper sensible arguments and expose the genuine fallacy in certain peoples ideologies (not specifically you vroom) it becomes emotional. Its us or them. No it should be all of us on good terms.
No one says demilitarise Islamic countries. Islamic countries have long standing political issues, which have created dissension amongst us and need resolved to change our perception political and social deprivation. However everything cannot be achieved by might.
Take Pakistan and India for example, any goodwill that tries to prevail is tarished by immediate suspicion. This is not out of fantasy but because we have a history of being attacked by India 3 times. Good reason not to trust their peace initiatives. On the same token Israel has been attacked by neighboring Arab countries many times, which leaves little trust for them to cling to and we insolently still say they are the whole issue. Hey if they are becoming powerful, they are doing it on their own accord, we have no right to say you can't become powerful because we are pu$$y wits. And we are going to destroy you for becoming powerful. This is racial ego.
Iran maybe is the only one trying to achieve a balance of power in the region while the rest of the Arab states are farting in the nice warm sand with their rhetoric of destroying Israel. And they will continue to do so because it is the poor Palestinians paying with their lives for this propaganda not them. The Arabs cannot to do anything because the same hand that feeds Israel is the one that feeds them.
At the end of the day I still say the Palestinians are dumb and much cause for their plight. If they have to suffer like this to get aid from their Arab bretheren states then this is no price for such loyalty.
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come on then USR are you saying militarise or demilitarise? yes or no please
all other tactics such as peace measures, recognising israel are seperate issues, please leave them out for your next post.
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Yes, God forbid we discuss such trivial, useless and unIslamic things as peaceful meaures. 
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Brother, make yourself strong i.e. capability to defend yourself. However don't do it with the pre-concieved agenda to annihilate someone or vaquish someone. You build yourself up to defend when need be.
Palestinians cannot defend themselves right now so they need to build themselves up and it is not going to happen by continuously picking a fight. They can give Israel a befitting response when they are capable of it. The Arab states should get a state created for them and then economically stabilise them and educate them. Territory is meaningless for now in their dispute, they have more to loose than to gain currently. You think Iran is going to pick a fight with Israel, absolutely not (atleast as long as they are in their senses and the Israeli's are in their's). However the course Iran is set on is to ensure no one else can throw weight on them so easily as Israeli's do with Palestinians.
Politics is not about frontal collisions.
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thank you, i look forward to seeing you at the next taleban meeting!
only j/k
nobody but nobody is building militaries purely to annihilate someone. its not been suggested yet(you may have hoped i would, if so, sorry ). the 200 israelli nukes pointing at all the major muslim cities right now are a sore point. leave you to think about this