Need advise

Lifestyle Relationships
61

Re: Need advise


i agree with most of what you said but under the law of the land and the shari'a law, if the case goes to court [and, it should] then she will be punished [there is NO doubt in my mind] ... she could have told her sister what was going on.

62

Re: Need advise

It would be speculation to say that the BIL started putting the moves on the sister when she was 13. We also cannot say with absolute confidence that the positive interactions between her and the bil at that point were of a flirtatious nature; they may or may not have been. The BIL could have begun preying on her when she was 18. It's merely a guess that it began earlier.

The OP's first paragraph is confusing, she needs to clear some things up.

1) Op said that her family involved the court in preventing her husband. She does not specify what the prevention was for. She then says that the husband jetted off to Europe to escape the court case.

2) He lived in Europe with OP and then started to lie to her and returned to Pakistan where "he did all this." I want to know what OP means by "did all this." Did he do the nikkah with the sister after his return to Pakistan? If so, how can she have any "respect" for a man who escaped a court case and abandoned his wife and child in Europe.....let alone agree to a nikkah with him without informing her own mother?

Now if the court-case that he escaped from had something to do with him doing nikkah with her sister...that changes things....but how much?

I have mentioned that it's a diff issue altogether if she was being coerced/threatened/blackmailed to do nikkah with him. I can understand if maybe he trued to get her to sign marriage documents without telling her what they were.

But if she willingly went behind her mother's back to marry him....how does this reflect 100% innocence? It doesn't. With the exception of coercion, when do kids hide things from their parents? It's usually when they are fully aware that their parents would not approve of their actions. In this case, it's not only her mother...but Desi society on the whole would not approve of it. An 18-year-old Desi girl KNOWS all too well the ramifications of taking such a step. If OP and her husband have been married for 5+ years.....when exactly did the marriage start falling apart? If he started showing his true colors as a husband shortly after the marriage, then did the sister and mom not know about this? If they were aware..then he was not the positive male figure she sorely missed.

63

Re: Need advise

When do kids hide things from their parents? When another adult tells them to keep it a secret.

When do kids hide things from their parents? When they are ashamed or embarrassed.

When do kids hide things from their parents? When people like you are out there judging her for being 18.

64

Re: Need advise

Btw @redvelvet I would whole heartedly defend an 18 year old boy against a married older woman or man just like I defend this girl. Her gender is not the reason why I am defending her. It's because of her age.

You do not suddenly decide to marry someone.

65

Re: Need advise

RV. Just read ur first paragraph. You are an intelligent person. And very reasonable.

U r correct. We don't have proof this started at 13. We do know at 18 they did Nikkah (is that correct use?)

It is safe to assume that things just didn't happen exactly the minute she turned 18. A reasonable assumption is it happened before 18. We also know he came into her life at 13. So grooming happened between 13 and 18. This much is obvious.

So it is high time people stop referring to a an 18 yr olds conduct. For the process - highly likely started before 18. Probably way before.

No. There is no proof. Just connecting the dots.

66

Re: Need advise

Such laws need to be changed. There is NO doubt in my mind.

67

Re: Need advise

Actually she is being judged for being 13 through 18. As u correctly hit the nail on the head, the range when the predator was working has charms was 13 to 18. But one poster is preoccupied with how the law of the land would punish this victim.

68

Re: Need advise

^Southie, let's say that the grooming started at age 13. So, did her body continue developing, but her mental faculties remained stagnant from 13 onwards? Her mental growth....as in her ability to reason, to think critically....just ceased at 13? Even people in unhealthy relationships may fail to get out of them, but from time to time they will question whether the relationship is right. So, this girl did no questioning at all? Her mind was closed to all the grooming provided by her sincere loved ones and the environment she grew up in and suddenly and exclusively became receptive to the conditioning of her BIL? Even if she were to develop a "crush" on her BIL at 13, she did not question the "rightness" of those feelings at 14, 15, 16, 17, 18? And if let's say that he started putting the moves on her when she was 17 or 16 ....even then she didn't question the soundness of the relationship?

She apologized to the OP. And you can argue that some people apologize even when they are not at fault. But why did she apologize after the nikkah? Was it because post-nikkah, the guy did not meet her expectations of a husband? Married life wasn't as rosy as she imagined it to be? Where did her sister and her child factor into her thought process? Why did this relationship suddenly seem so "wrong" after the nikkah was done that it warranted an apology? It's not unreasonable to say that she had an awareness that her actions were not kosher, but she suppressed it...and that reflects foolishness, weakness, but not innocence. Innocence is the complete absence of awareness, Southie....it does not include the suppressing of awareness or ignoring of one's conscience. We are not being cruel. We place the bulk of the blame on the guy. Unless she was coerced or he used sheer trickery with documents, it's too kind to say she was thoroughly innocent.

69

Re: Need advise

I'm horrified that you think like this redvelvet. It's as if you think that paedophilia does not exist. Sick people exist in the world and again manipulation is a slow process. You are victim blaming to an extent that it's unbelievable.

Let me give you another example

A child does not become a terrorist overnight. They are conditioned, taught that this is right. That what they are doing is for a cause.
Similarly anyone who willing shoots a person or thinks its ok to rape or disrespect another person. It is conditioned to them taught to them over the years.

We are taught to respect our elders. To trust them and believe in what they say... and here you are blaming the victim.

70

Re: Need advise

RV when a predator works on a minor, it is sad when folks use such logic - how come she didn't wise up as she grew older, how come her earlier grooming did not help out.

It just boggles my mind people would throw her under the bus. And even use her apology against her.

She has repented. Her sister has accepted her apology.

71

Re: Need advise

I am not dismissing the possibility of the bil's grooming and its influence... It was up against the many years of grooming provided by her family and environment. I find it very disturbing that you want to totally remove from the equation her formative grooming and the most consistent grooming she has had. You speak as though this girl was under the shadow of her bil 24/7.... As though she lived with him.

If this affair started after his return to Pakistan from Europe.... Was he living with the OP 's family or was he living with his own parents? If the affair began prior to his move to Europe...... Again, did he have his own home or was he living in his wife's home in Pakistan? IF in both cases he did NOT live with his wife's family......... HOW did he find the time to groom her? Was he frequently visiting OP's sister? Unsupervised.... With no mother around?

You say that she didn't decide to marry him overnight....... That it took months and maybe even years for him to gain her trust....for a bond to develop between them. So let's talk about that, Kakee. How did that bond develop? Or as u like to say...how did this "grooming" happen? Surely, it would have looked suspicious if the Bil was frequently visiting the sister and spending huge amounts of time "alone" with her ...leaving behind his wife? So there are other ways to work around this. How about a cell phone? Let's say she talked to him via cell... Maybe for hours .... Did she do it behind her mom's back? Her sister's back? Did she hide it from them ? Did she meet up with him outside the home without telling anyone? Dud she not once find it strange that my BIL spends a lot more time with me than the BIL of any other girl I know? Even if the BIL.....as part of his grooming.....told her not to tell anyone about their communication........even if he told her there was nothing wrong with all that they were doing.......you seriously believe that NOT ONCE.......NOT ONCE.....while being a willing participant .....did she question whether all of this was morally sound?

And then it just all SUDDENLY became so wrong , so immoral.... ONLY after she married him? At that moment SUDDENLY the grooming of the BIL ceased and the wholesome, sound grooming of her mother and her environment and her religion SUDDENLY switched on? If she is able to suddenly switch off her bil 's predatory grooming.... Could she not have chosen to switch off or ignore her conscience?

I don't see her as a cunning, manipulative, conniving girl. I am not trying to paint her as one. I do not want the OP to harbor any ill feelings toward her sister after forgiving her cuz she needs her family's support at this time. I see the sister as a weak and foolish girl......but weakness is not synonymous with innocence, Kakee. Quit trying to simplify things and reducing adolescent females to mindless beings whose mental growth remains stagnant past a certain age. I doubt that group of women would find it flattering. I do not condone rape and pedophila..... But I also don't condone the dumbing down of human beings.

Okay Great, Kakee.....Now that you're on a roll with thinking outside the box ....why don't you add "fear of parent's disapproval" to your list of why kids hide things from their parents.

Yes, kids hide when an an adult threatens or tells them to keep it a secret.

Yes, kids hide things from parents when the feel ashamed.

And yes, kids hide when they fear being judged by "evil" people like RV.

But having been a kid myself......and having worked with kids.....I know that kids will ALSO hide things when they know that what they want or what they plan to do will not meet with a parent's approval.

I am "judging" her for being 18? I have said she's weak and foolish...I have not passed a severe judgment on her character where I've labeled her as being a conniving, manipulative younger sister.

If I WERE to "judge" all 18-year-olds...I'd brand them all as mindless, and incapable of thinking rationally....as you have done, Kakee. Dumbing down all 18-years or teenagers is no less than judging. Be aware of your own judgments.

72

Re: Need advise

I've said enough. Clearly, we will not see eye-to-eye on this and we can agree to disagree. We've been debating the sister's level of culpability in this equation since the first page and this may lead to the OP having ill feelings for her sister. She sought advice for whether she should return to her husband. She is not in favor of resuming the marriage and her sister...despite her mistake.... may now be a source of support for her in this decision, so let's focus on that instead.

73

Re: Need advise

Actually we do see eye to eye. Op has accepted her sisters apology. The two are United. The sister has apologized. And yes. Op needs her sisters support.

Some kept.focussing on the sisters culpability and punishment. Some of us felt that was not appropriate.

All are in agreement op needs to move forward. Leaving her ex in the rear view mirrror.

74

Re: Need advise

Thank you all for your replies. I think it is better for me that I got rid o him within 5 years than spending my whole life with such a bull ****.

75

Need advise

Wow. Amazing.

Don't ever ever go back to that filthy man. I say keep your daughter away too. He preyed on your younger sister and married her? Gross insaan. Sorry but that's what I can say. I am sure you can find a faithful and decent man iA.

As for your sister... I agree with some posters above that she should have more sense. I doubt that an 18 year old can be that much of a "Allah miyan ki gai" and marry her brother in law. Again, it's gross. I think she should be getting some real counseling from someone qualified enough to do so. If things are alright between you both, I suggest you too go counseling with her. It's disturbing that a sister would do such a thing to her older sister. She definitely knew what she was doing was wrong. And your ex husband must have manipulated her in some vicious way too. It takes two hands to clap. Both are guilty, sorry to say.

OP, this guy married your younger sister, had a haram r/ship with her, recorded your doings, didn't give you kharcha etc. Please don't think of going back to him, especially since you say you have no feelings for him. What's the point of living with him? Having a relationship with him when you're no longer in love with him? What if he cheats on you again and marries another woman? It'll be a cycle. You're young, just 29 years old, you can still save yourself from him.

May Allah give you strength to overcome this. My suggestion is to not return to this guy. I'm sure when your daughter is grown up she will understand why you left her father.

76

Re: Need advise

He had no living standards either, Atfter spoiling lives o two daughters of a mother it is not easy to forget or forgive for anyone of us.

77

Re: Need advise

^ I think the above post shows you are now on top of the situation. Yes, he did damage to BOTH daughters. Hope you two sisters are kind to each other for the rest of your lives.

78

Re: Need advise

I've heard of older women being manipulated by married men with their sob stories and their (in)sincere charm, enough that they become blind to the guys faults, his existing wife and kids, his financial instability etc. so I could give the young girl the benefit of the doubt especially when she would have been even younger when the bil came into her life.
On a side note, I think I was in the 9th grade or something when a cousin was trying to "make the moves" on me, as in, acting pally, dropping hints, trying to make light of casual body contact, like high fives and elbow touching while talking etc. He was young himself but ofcourse older than me (I think about 10 years older), married a couple of years then, a love marriage that too, had an infant child... And when he was acting like this I was totally weirded out and confused. My first thought was that he's married so why is he acting so weird, I mean he has a wife so like what is he thinking. So at that stage I had a very clear thing in my mind that married ppl do not do this, and what is he thinking? What can come out of his flirting with me? Anyway I just tried to be normal, not take his hints, and just let it pass. Since he was not explicit in anything, but obvious enough to me, I couldn't really confront him with anything, and because I was young I felt it would be disrespectful, I didn't do anything about it. It just went away with time, probably when he thought I was too dumb to read into his advances. So this was me but I know everyone's life is different and u can't say anything to them till uv walked in their shoes.
Another thing, the girl has to have confided in someone, a cousin, a friend. I can't imagine her not having told a single soul about the goings on (especially since it went all the way to a nikah). And that no one informed her of the fact that what she's doing is wrong or that she can't legally marry her sisters husband. I can't imagine a friend condoning this behavior, k yaar amjad Bhai maeray saath romance karnay ki koshish kar rahay haen, wo baji k saath khush nahi haen. And friend goes like, Haan tum boht naiki kar rahi ho unka dukh sukh baant lo.