Re: Need advise
Not sure wherebouts in Europe the OP is but in the UK 18 is legally considered an adult and statuatory rape only applies to those under 16 as that's the age of consent here..
(It's even lower in some other parts of Europe)
All this happened in Pakistan while I was in europe.
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you are right but as I told only when I look at my daughter I think of him, she is 4 years old and often ask about him. he was not a good provider for her too. Infact i have no reason of going back to him
If he is not a good provider for your daughter, then why do you want him to raise your daughter? What do you think your daughter will learn by having this man in her life? Do you want your daughter to grow up thinking that its ok in the future for her husband to treat her like this?
When you look at your daughter and think about her future....how she will become as a woman.....that should make you run away from this man!
Did your sister inform your parents that she was going to do nikah with your husband BEFORE it happened?
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Oh so sad first of all what he did that is HARAM in islam to get married 2 sisters in same time shame on him and ur sister never ever think to go back to him n never forgive them both
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Except this is not a casual romance between consenting adults. The guy is a predator. No matter how together you expect an 18 year girl ( in Pakistan ) to be, she is no match for a manipulative guy like him. She is still in her teens, a child. I have to disagree with most here, but I don’t think the girl shares the blame here. And like @KKF implied, if this guy is not punished/stopped, chances are he will do it again to some other innocent girl.
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If he is not a good provider for your daughter, then why do you want him to raise your daughter? What do you think your daughter will learn by having this man in her life? Do you want your daughter to grow up thinking that its ok in the future for her husband to treat her like this?
When you look at your daughter and think about her future....how she will become as a woman.....that should make you run away from this man!
Did your sister inform your parents that she was going to do nikah with your husband BEFORE it happened?
you are right, no she didn´t tell anyone. I dont have father.
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Its a pure case of adultery, the second Nikah does not hold any value. Get rid of the guy and warn the poor fellow who may eventually marry your younger sister in future.
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I don’t know why you seem to view this as a competition between the adult male predator and the 18-year-old as to who is “more” guilty. I don’t get the vibe that other members here hold her “more” accountable than the husband. Seems most members believe the husband is more at fault, but that the sister can’t be totally exempt of blame.
18 is young, but it is not totally devoid of sense and a conscience. A girl that age would feel some pangs of guilt doing that to a friend, but this is your own sister. In the US, she would not be considered a minor and from the Islamic perspective 18 is not a child. You see teenaged girls throwing a hissy-fit if someone takes their makeup or clothes or some petty possession without permission… Your sister’s husband is a much bigger deal than a small material possession. Granted that the degree of confidence, intellect, ehsaas varies from one teenaged girl to the next and not all 18-year-olds are the same, but I doubt the age is totally devoid of any inner awareness that what I’m doing just might not be all that kosher. Her youth might warrant greater sympathy from you and I can understand that…but to let her go scot-free? No, that doesn’t make sense.
Again, husband deserves more blame…but sister can’t be totally exempt unless she’s really that masoom and obtuse. It wouldn’t be entirely fair, OYMWA. And the OP holds her husband more accountable than her sister. The only view that I don’t agree with is to tell the OP that she should “never” forgive and forget what her sister did. I think that’s too harsh.
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I don't know why you seem to view this as a competition between the adult male predator and the 18-year-old as to who is "more" guilty. I don't get the vibe that other members here hold her "more" accountable than the husband. Seems most members believe the husband is more at fault, but that the sister can't be totally exempt of blame.
18 is young, but it is not totally devoid of sense and a conscience. A girl that age would feel some pangs of guilt doing that to a friend, but this is your own sister. In the US, she would not be considered a minor and from the Islamic perspective 18 is not a child. You see teenaged girls throwing a hissy-fit if someone takes their makeup or clothes or some petty possession without permission.... Your sister's husband is a much bigger deal than a small material possession. Granted that the degree of confidence, intellect, ehsaas varies from one teenaged girl to the next and not all 18-year-olds are the same, but I doubt the age is totally devoid of any inner awareness that what I'm doing just might not be all that kosher. Her youth might warrant greater sympathy from you and I can understand that...but to let her go scot-free? No, that doesn't make sense.
Again, husband deserves more blame...but sister can't be totally exempt unless she's really that masoom and obtuse. It wouldn't be entirely fair, OYMWA. And the OP holds her husband more accountable than her sister. The only view that I don't agree with is to tell the OP that she should "never" forgive and forget what her sister did. I think that's too harsh.
As I wrote she is really very innocent by nature and stupid type like Allah mian ki gai thats why she got trapped. He just did mind making. It is very easy to make the mind of teenagers if they are not very clever.
i forgave her when she realized and wept in front of me but at my heart, I have nothing except sympathies for her.
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^Okay then, OP. I don't think a girl has to be super smart or taiz to know that something like this would be wrong; it's just common sense and sometimes we choose to ignore sense. But you know your sister better than us and it's good that she realizes her mistake.
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you are right, no she didn´t tell anyone. I dont have father.
As I wrote she is really very innocent by nature and stupid type like Allah mian ki gai thats why she got trapped. i forgave her when she realized and wept in front of me but at my heart, I have nothing except sympathies for her.
I get that she's your sister and her tears moved you…..but please do not be stupid enough to fall for this act. What 18 year old girl in Pakistan thinks that its ok to get nikah done without informing family? Think back to when you were 18…..did you really believe that its ok to marry another woman's husband without getting blessing from your elders? You obviously grew up in the same household as your sister…..did your mother and other elders really teach you that its ok to get married without telling anyone?
The fact that you sister did not tell ANYONE……she did not get blessing from your mother or any other elders in the family….or even inform you that she was planning on getting this nikah done proves that she knew what she was doing is wrong. She's not as masoom as you're making her out to be. Obviously she's your sister and you can forgive her if you choose to…..but please do not fool yourself into thinking that you sister did not know that what she was doing is wrong.
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yaar 18 years old teen age girl knows that Nikkah is necessary for legal and halal relationship, but does not know that sister can not marry to brother in-law.
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I would just move on and become independent for the sake of your daughter. You don't need to rush into marriage like your mother is saying. It's better to be in a better place emotionally and financially instead of just staying with an unfaithful man and being miserable.
I have no words to express how hurt I would be in your current situation but I hope for her future and your sake, your sister realizes that she made a very big mistake, one which many people would never forgive. But also in life, don't let people walk all over you or treat you like garbage. Your happiness matters and it doesn't matter what your husband wants at this point, he lost his chance when he cheated on you and performed a secret nikah. I would move on, become independent and if ready in the future, find someone who is kind and considerate towards you and treats you with respect. Please don't go back to him as he will not change his ways and you deserve much much better.
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obviously you guys don't understand what grooming means. 18 is young and you cannot equate the maturity of a western 18 year old with a desi 18 year old. The environment and cultural expectations are much different. There are many, many, many more girls that are confined to the homes.
It's horrible to say that she was 18 legal age of consent therefore she knew what she was doing. You have to factor in everything and clearly you do not have much experience with children because 18 is still a child.
She would have been sheltered and easily manipulated. Perhaps she doesn't even have a proper education and not much support. It is the man's fault entirely and definitely not the girls.
We can't even put the same thought process to upper class and middle class.
18 is the legal age of consent, but how many days, months, years do you think it took him to groom the girl? and how easily do you think he turned his position from a respected elder brother to her future husband? OP mentioned that they do not have a father which means what she knows what a male figure is, is quite distorted
Why didn't you protect your sister from this man, @chitchat? Where were your parents? This doesn't happen so suddenly. You want someone to blame. Blame your horrible husband who targeted a young girl. Would you like it knowing that your daughter was being groomed years on end?
Dunno why you guys think a girl would suddenly sign papers without even thinking about it. It doesn't SUDDENLY happen, people.
Your exhusband is a horrible, manipulative man. Look, he even turned many of the posters against your sister.
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^ No. Just no. I hail from a small and very conservative city in Pakistan....and even I cannot say that my female cousins in Pakistan were extremely naive or innocent at 18. In fact, it can be said that a few were a couple steps ahead of me. While you may argue that she prolly lacked experience with how to interact with the opposite sex...that can be countered with the argument that free mingling is not only discouraged b/w non-mehrams...it is also compounded by the heavy cultural emphasis on modesty and maintaining one's izzat and that of their family's. So, if you look at it from that angle... It leaves her little wiggle room.
Unless OP's husband didn't inform the sister that the documents she's dealing with are nikkah papers....or unless maybe OP threatened the sister in some way.....or gave her a major guilt trip which led her to believe that she'd be incurring her family some damage by not marrying him...... But if her sister WILLINGLY entertained the thought of being his wife, you can call it a moment of weakness.....you can say that she had a slip-up.....but I doubt it can be called sheer innocence. And Allah knows best.
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^ No. Just no. I hail from a small and very conservative city in Pakistan....and even so I cannot say that my female cousins in Pakistan were extremely naive or innocent. In fact, it can be said that a few were a couple steps ahead of me. Even though the culture (as well as religion) frowns upon free intermingling of the genders especially non-mehram.... The concept of hayaa is still highly emphasized. While you may argue that she prolly lacked experience with how to interact with the opposite sex...but to counter that argument is the fact that free mingling is not only discouraged b/w non-mehrams... It Is also compounded by the heavy cultural emphasis on modesty and maintaining one's uzzat and that of their family's. So, if you look at it from that angle... It leaves her little wiggle room.
I can commend the Op's sister for apologizing and for OP having a bug enough heart to forgive her... But I find it hard to believe that a teenager can be that clueless.
Interacting with other guys is not the same as having a man who's in a position of high respect, authority, and loved by her own sister. Again, it doesn't happen suddenly. You don't SUDDENLY want to sign papers. You have to be coerced and told sweet nothings and all that. It's GROOMING. He abused his power and sorry just because she's 18 doesn't mean jack.
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^
Kakee, girls in Pak are "groomed" from an early age to have haya and modesty around non-mehram men...to not get too close to their brother-in-law or to be alone with him, unsupervised for a lengthy time....to wear the dupatta before all non-mehrams etc etc. You're talking about the "grooming" that the OP's husband did. I question what happened to all the grooming that parents and religion and culture did .....waaaay before the BIL even made his entrance into their lives. Where did it go? Out the window? You can choose to ignore the grooming but it's hard to be oblivious to it.
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^
Kakee, girls in Pak are "groomed" from an early age to have haya and modesty around non-mehram men...to not get too close to their brother-in-law...to wear the dupatta etc etc. You're talking about the "grooming" that the OP's husband did. I question what happened to all the grooming that parents and religion and culture did .....waaaay before the BIL even made his entrance into their lives. Where did it go? Out the window? You can choose to ignore the grooming but it's hard to be oblivious to it.
They been married 5 years + right and she's 18... Please do the math. You are applying your personal experience to an experience that is not the same.
OP said they don't have a father. Enters in a male figure that is always around who is respected and loved...
Also, cultural expectations and religion is not grooming. Jeez, it takes months and years to convince a person that what she is doing is right even though its wrong. No one suddenly signs a nikah just because one told her to.
Ask your sister how long this has been going on, OP.
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How many years have you spent living in a desi country? As a desi girl who was actually born and raised in desi-land until the age of 13…I can promise you that this 18 year old is not the “child” you’re making her out to be. This has nothing to do with comparing her to a western girl. This 18 year old got married without telling ANYONE. No matter how sheltered a girl is…even if the girl never attended school…does not have a father in the home…whatever…EVERY desi girl born/raised in Pakistan/India/Bangladesh knows that it is not acceptable to get married to ANY guy without the consent/approval of the parents.
I agree that the guy is more to blame due to his being older. But let’s not pretend that a 18 year old female…who intentionally hid her nikah from her mother and sister BEFORE it took place…had no clue what she was doing. If the 18 year old was truly innocent, she would have informed her mother as soon as the guy mentioned nikah and the 18 year old wanted to go through with it. The ONLY time a desi girl gets nikah done without informing her parents AND without the presence of her parents is when she knows that the guy she is marrying will not be approved by her own family. In this case…gee…I wonder why the 18 year old’s family would not consent to her marrying this guy. 
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Doesn’t matter if she was desi or not though. She was groomed. Simple as that.
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^ I admire your perseverance. You don't give up do you, even if you don't know jack about something