Nadra’s disclosure: Over 2m rich pay no taxes

[enlightened]

Re: Nadra’s disclosure: Over 2m rich pay no taxes

Being a millionaire in Pakistan is not a big thing. Anyone who owns a small apartment to live in, has a decent job and good education has assets of several million rupees. These ppl are the salaried, middle-class.
I believe the article is talking about the billionaires, who own mansions, are frequent flyers etc. This is the business class, the landlords and the politicians. These ppl do spend a lot of money on protecting themselves and their family, but the security provided to them is out of government funds. Most of their foreign trips are sponsored and yet they don't pay a single paisa in tax.
If they can be exempted, then why are we forced to pay tax by automatically having it deducted from our salaries?

[Shamraz_Khan]

Re: Nadra’s disclosure: Over 2m rich pay no taxes

Read my post again. I said keeping that money for yourself would be wrong. Spend it on the betterment of society yourself by building infrastructure, etc. But sponsoring Zardari and his gang will not help the country. The teacher making 25k can not avoid the deduction, otherwise he would too.

So, how would you prevent people from keeping money for themselves? And do you think charity from rich should be enough to run the country w/o govt or taxes?

Btw, Pakistans GDP is $US 211Bs. How much of that do you think was stolen by Zardari and is kept in his Swiss Banks?

[sweetequation]

Re: Nadra’s disclosure: Over 2m rich pay no taxes

sweet equation, who are we defending here? you think the millionaires in Pakistan have a character? show me just one , just one who does and i will believe you. Every freaking system runs on bribery and fraud. Thats how they have become millionaires .. if today they are hiding their families , serves them right ..

The ones on the road, do they not have families or stomachs attached to them? they get killed in masses and no one bats a lid .. and a millionaire because of his own kertoot hides his family and we are supposed to feel sorry for them?

All these arrogant faces of evil, the so called millionaires, need to be the first ones who should be taxed as highly as possible .. they dont have no excuses in the world to evade tax .. oh but I forgot thsi is Pakistan we are talking about , they will show the tax collectors the money and sub bik jain gai bi and no one will collect any taxes from the ones who can bribe successfully .

To make it clear to you I am against the system and the government. Every society have black sheeps in it. Just think about this. Lets start giving example of a local middle class citizen of Pakistan having not big degree of education. When that person is in Pakistan he does all what he wants do everything the way he wants and if you see the same person in another country like US for example, you will see him following the laws, trying to be a good citizen but when he returns to Pakistan he is the same trash as he was.

We need law and order

Regarding rich people having small or big business, if they are allowed to work with proper support no one will chose wrong path as compulsory and the only way, and if anyone does he surely be the one having criminal nature. Here in Pakistan every one is force to choose the wrong way. Go to any government department without paying them extra or having a big source you wont have your work done.

electricity is small example of Pakistan. Why do people steel electricity here, why dont they steel it in US or any other country. People are paying bills but still have to face power breakdowns for what reason.

The law and order does not allow us to live by the law

If today Pakistanis are given life security, property security and all Government Departments follow the law faithfully, Pakistan will be dream of every businessmen to come and start his business.

[Shamraz_Khan]

Re: Nadra’s disclosure: Over 2m rich pay no taxes

sweet equation, who are we defending here? you think the millionaires in Pakistan have a character? show me just one , just one who does and i will believe you. Every freaking system runs on bribery and fraud. Thats how they have become millionaires .. if today they are hiding their families , serves them right ..

The ones on the road, do they not have families or stomachs attached to them? they get killed in masses and no one bats a lid .. and a millionaire because of his own kertoot hides his family and we are supposed to feel sorry for them?

All these arrogant faces of evil, the so called millionaires, need to be the first ones who should be taxed as highly as possible .. they dont have no excuses in the world to evade tax .. oh but I forgot thsi is Pakistan we are talking about , they will show the tax collectors the money and sub bik jain gai bi and no one will collect any taxes from the ones who can bribe successfully .

All I see is people making excuses for tax cheats...the people who are enjoying luxury lifestyle at expense of vast majority of poor of the country.

[Umer]

Re: Nadra’s disclosure: Over 2m rich pay no taxes

So, how would you prevent people from keeping money for themselves? And do you think charity from rich should be enough to run the country w/o govt or taxes?

Btw, Pakistans GDP is $US 211Bs. How much of that do you think was stolen by Zardari and is kept in his Swiss Banks?

Nobody could prevent people from keeping that tax money for themselves. I was saying that I would not, if I was in that situation. I was also not talking about charity, ie handing money out to the poor, but spending that money on infrastructure, ie something that would be the government's job to do.

Zardari is currently the 2nd richest man in Pakistan according to official figures. In reality he is probably the richest. So yes, significant parts of Pakistan's GDP were either stolen by him and his aides or misused.

[sweetequation]

Re: Nadra’s disclosure: Over 2m rich pay no taxes

All I see is people making excuses for tax cheats...the people who are enjoying luxury lifestyle at expense of vast majority of poor of the country.

And think about it majority of these people will be politician and high grade officers of of Pakistani
Government You know when i have to pay tax i feel like i am filling Pakistani corrupt leaders pockets, it hurts to throw away money that we earn after so much hardship to those who don't even deserve the dust of our country.

[Sa1eem]

Re: Nadra’s disclosure: Over 2m rich pay no taxes

No doubt that there must be many tax evaders in Pakistan but I do not think that the impression from figures is true.

Pakistan is one of the few countries in the world where many (possibly in millions) who are considered rich and are living rich life in big houses, live without earning a single penny from Pakistan. Either their income comes from family member working abroad or they themselves worked abroad for long time and now living on their savings from abroad. Further, a large number of rich drive their income from agriculture that is exempt from income tax.

In my opinion, there are few tax payers in country because of three reasons:

1: Pakistan economy mostly depend on agriculture and there is no income tax on agricultural income.

2: Income of majority working class is below threshold income (below income over which income tax is applicable).

3: Many rich industrialists and other businessmen knowing that agricultural income is exempt of tax, they buy farms too, and then show losses in industrial and other activities (hence no tax) still live a luxurious life on pretext that their high living is due to their agricultural income.

[Sa1eem]

Re: Nadra’s disclosure: Over 2m rich pay no taxes

Threshold income for tax year 2012-13

Income
Rs 400000 ... No tax (that is Rs 25000 a month)

So, only those individuals who earn more than Rs 25000 a month pay tax.

[Ali_Syed]

Re: Nadra’s disclosure: Over 2m rich pay no taxes

@Sa1eem

Threshold income for tax year 2012-13

Income Rs 400000 ... No tax (that is Rs 25000 a month)

So, only those individuals who earn more than Rs 25000 a month pay tax.

Only government employees over the threshold pay taxes, I dont think the rest do...

[Captain1]

Re: Nadra’s disclosure: Over 2m rich pay no taxes

Do you people who are supporting tax evasion believe there is no loot-maar of public money in US/Europe where larger population pays taxes? Problem is that since tax collection is very little hence any amount looted/stolen seems huge. When government gets good collection of taxes it will have more room to spend on security and infrastructure, if there is little money then they will only address what it thinks is more critical.

[Umer]

Re: Nadra’s disclosure: Over 2m rich pay no taxes

@Captain1

Do you people who are supporting tax evasion believe there is no loot-maar of public money in US/Europe where larger population pays taxes? Problem is that since tax collection is very little hence any amount looted/stolen seems huge. When government gets good collection of taxes it will have more room to spend on security and infrastructure, if there is little money then they will only address what it thinks is more critical.

You have a point here. However: People who are caught doing loot-maar of public money in US/Europe are generally brought to justice as well. Whereas in Pakistan the whole world knows who the Looteras are and they are not only still out of jail, but still in office.

So the proportions we are talking about are completely different. I don't have any stats to back this up, but I don't think more than 5% of public funds in Western countries goes into the pocket of corrupt politicians. In Pakistan that figure must be close to 50%.

[sweetequation]

Re: Nadra’s disclosure: Over 2m rich pay no taxes

@Captain1

Do you people who are supporting tax evasion believe there is no loot-maar of public money in US/Europe where larger population pays taxes? Problem is that since tax collection is very little hence any amount looted/stolen seems huge. When government gets good collection of taxes it will have more room to spend on security and infrastructure, if there is little money then they will only address what it thinks is more critical.

If your comparing Pakistan situation with US/Europe then compare it with this

1. Do they have water problem?............Lot of places in Pakistan we dont have water sources, i will talk about Karachi cause i live there. we pay water bills but here we have few areas were there is no such thing as water people buy water from other areas and thats how they live.
2. Do they have Electricity problem?.............we have ongoing electricity problem which is getting worse, power breakdowns and load-sheddings every day in all Pakistan.
3. Do they have Sui-Gas problem...... In Lahore we have big problem, in karachi few areas dont even have any connection to it still they pay bills.

I dont know about other areas of Pakistan but i can bet they have same issues.

In which way we get return of this tax

We have roads bridges having big holes, bad condition,

Government school constructed 10 years back still same with no changes made in them

Government Colleges are usually established in old buildings, (build during Pakistan India was united)

So what do they do with that tax

simple answer swiss banks

Government takes Loans from the US, where it goes..????

[Robert]

Re: Nadra’s disclosure: Over 2m rich pay no taxes

@Southie

The rich benefit the most from a nations infrastructure. Hence they should pay a higher % of their earnings in tax.

Can we calculate exactly how much rich has benefited from nations infrastructure, before we can determine their %age?

[KatDaddy]

Re: Nadra’s disclosure: Over 2m rich pay no taxes

Dang...that's dumb...I thought India is the lowest ranked in the world at 3 % population (36 Million in 1.2 Billion) paying tax. Pakistan is just above 1% of the population (2 million in 176 million).

But, rules are fast changing in India, I believe, without Tax id you can't open Bank accounts, buy houses in India or withdraw cash over 50K or even buy a car. Guess next few years the numbers will change in India. I hope Pakistan too it will change. Countries with such huge population that needs to be lifted, corruption and tax evasion are the biggest obstacles.

[KatDaddy]

Re: Nadra’s disclosure: Over 2m rich pay no taxes

@Robert

Can we calculate exactly how much rich has benefited from nations infrastructure, before we can determine their %age?

Business owners use the road, electricity infrastructure more than others. Benefit most from universities that chrun out their work force. They may have enterprise, but without a stable country and therefore a stable market, they will not be enjoying the level of success. Those with enterprise will always succeed no matter what, but without the modern state they may have to resort to 18th-19th century style - that is by being feudal, pay for you own protection, either to a King or a warloard or raise your own mercenary.

[Southie]

Re: Nadra’s disclosure: Over 2m rich pay no taxes

@Robert

Can we calculate exactly how much rich has benefited from nations infrastructure, before we can determine their %age?

Exact calculation is difficult. Here is a start though.

Highways - do the rich folks own cars? Do they use the highways? Then they should pay taxes
Airports - do they use them?
Defence - are there jawans manning various posts under extreme weather conditions? Do they get sufficient protectoon from natural elements? Are they paid enough? Probably not. Do they protect the country? Yes. The rich should pony up.
roadways drainage sewer water electricity banks post office telecommunication
one can go on.

[Captain1]

Re: Nadra’s disclosure: Over 2m rich pay no taxes

@Umer

You have a point here. However: People who are caught doing loot-maar of public money in US/Europe are generally brought to justice as well. Whereas in Pakistan the whole world knows who the Looteras are and they are not only still out of jail, but still in office.

So the proportions we are talking about are completely different. I don't have any stats to back this up, but I don't think more than 5% of public funds in Western countries goes into the pocket of corrupt politicians. In Pakistan that figure must be close to 50%.

I believe it all points to the same sh!t, if judges/policemen are paid properly then they will not be able to bribed, justice system as well as law enforcement will improve.

@sweetequation

If your comparing Pakistan situation with US/Europe then compare it with this

1. Do they have water problem?............Lot of places in Pakistan we dont have water sources, i will talk about Karachi cause i live there. we pay water bills but here we have few areas were there is no such thing as water people buy water from other areas and thats how they live.
2. Do they have Electricity problem?.............we have ongoing electricity problem which is getting worse, power breakdowns and load-sheddings every day in all Pakistan.
3. Do they have Sui-Gas problem...... In Lahore we have big problem, in karachi few areas dont even have any connection to it still they pay bills.

I dont know about other areas of Pakistan but i can bet they have same issues.

In which way we get return of this tax

We have roads bridges having big holes, bad condition,

Government school constructed 10 years back still same with no changes made in them

Government Colleges are usually established in old buildings, (build during Pakistan India was united)

So what do they do with that tax

simple answer swiss banks

Government takes Loans from the US, where it goes..????

Sweetequation: everything you mention I believe is pointing to same root-cause. If government does not have sufficient funding it cannot provide basic necessities everywhere in the country. Why are we facing load-shedding? because government is unable to pay circular debt, any guesses why?, electricity crisis is also there because we are stealing electricity, Govt is unable to install more power plants, why?

Why are we facing gas shortages? Because we can't produce enough electricity (for lack of finances) so industries resorted to using gas which put gas supply under pressure.

Why don't you stop using roads so government does not have to spend money on roads?
Why can't we stop stealing electricity?

When we are not doing what we are supposed to do then why take out knives for government when it is not doing what it is supposed to do?

Fulfill your responsibilities first then blame the government.

[Ali_Syed]

Re: Nadra’s disclosure: Over 2m rich pay no taxes

Why are we facing load-shedding? because government is unable to pay circular debt, any guesses why?, electricity crisis is also there because we are stealing electricity, Govt is unable to install more power plants, why?

This has to do with the planning and corruption in the higher circles of our power centers. No one forced the previous regimes to go for expensive IPPs (based on thermal power). Now the situation is that we have the installed capacity but cant use it. The government has tried its utmost to pay off the circular debt during the past few years, but they cant keep up. This has double impact, first the government has to subsidize the electricity provided to the customers, on the other hand the electricity rates have gone up considerably and its becoming difficult for the people to pay them even if they want to.

With the result they have to carry out extensive load shedding at exorbitant rates. Due to high inflation, lower salaries people cannot afford to pay for the electricity they are using (if you convert the bills that Pakistanis are paying they are more than the bills one pays in Western countries), with the result "kunda system" is increasing. Have you seen any country in the world where you can pay up to 60 % of your salaries for electricity bills, and that too for using it for 12-16 hours? If the government had gone for a proper mix of generation technologies to start with the situation wouldnt have been this bad.

[QUOTE]
Why are we facing gas shortages? Because we can't produce enough electricity (for lack of finances) so industries resorted to using gas which put gas supply under pressure.
[/QUOTE]

Gas shortages also due to bad planning, the government did nothing to increase its capacity of gas production (although they were aware of its depletion). Coupled with this massive increase in CNG stations, and supplying gas to captive power plants (on subsidies) has further deteriorated the situation. Pakistan maybe is one of the few countries which is charging the poor to provide subsidized gas to billionaires of the country (captive power).

I agree with you that we as citizens should also fulfill our responsibilities, but the people have almost reached the boiling point.

[ajazali]

Re: Nadra’s disclosure: Over 2m rich pay no taxes

not just in third world countries, but also in Countries like Canada as well. Tax evasion is a big issue here too. Billionaires keep their money in different bank accounts around the world and just get away with income tax. same is the case in United States, I was reading this article, in which according to 2011 reports, 7,000 millionaires paid no income tax in 2011. and now thats really a big number.

I think there should be some penalties for tax evasion in Pakistan, perhaps this might force people to pay their taxes?

But tax rate is quite affordable and not aggressive in pakistan as compare to US, UK etc.

[kakaballi]

Re: Nadra’s disclosure: Over 2m rich pay no taxes

Its just lack of intent form the law enforcers. Why blame the tax evaders? If they are given an option to pay Rs.1 million tax or Rs.100,000 to the tax guy, which one would choose?

If the government is interested, there are simpler ways to increase tax revenue. A threefold increase in tax on import of cars or luxury fixtures, for example, can be an easy way to indirectly tax only the rich. The only problem is that the decision makers own and use those cars.