Re: Myth about winning 1965 War
What do people make of this?
‘Ayub Khan blamed Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto and generals around him for misleading him into launching a military conflict with India in 1965’, a fact corroborated by one of ZAB’s mentors later
Bhutto misled me in 1965 War: Ayub Khan
Smokers’ Corner: Bhutto’s ideologue: friend, mentor, enemy - Pakistan - DAWN.COM
Re: Myth about winning 1965 War
Indeed both countries should celebrate 1965 war but they must also realise that war is not the solution but a problem.
Both countries need to focus on human development instead of creating war hysteria
Re: Myth about winning 1965 War
A food for thought who get heart attack every time their small prejudiced minds see men in uniform being praised by the public. Anything that doesn't suit their agenda, is a 'lie'.
Britain who is indirectly blamed for starting the Second World War almost got defeated by Nazi Germany before American intervention. Though a very well documented and well known academic fact, but how many Brits cry, wail and abuse their armed forces for getting almost defeated by a fascist force? How many of them call their armies useless? No, Brits aren't as undignified, miserable and self hating as Pakistani pseudo intellectuals. Despite Britain being the superpower at the time with established armed forces was unable to overtake the Nazis who only came into existence less than ten years, you would never find British 'intellectuals' discrediting, dismissing Britain's war efforts. Insulting people's memories, rubbing salt in their war veterans wounds. Despite all the academic debates, Britain is given due credit for resisting the Nazis and putting up a fight. This is what dignified nations do!
Winston Churchill who otherwise had 500 very ugly shortcomings and political flaws, is honoured and fondly remembered for keeping nation's spirit and morale high in war years. You may hate Churchill and the war but his services in those years were priceless, and everyone admits this!
Here you have shameless, insolent and dumb and dejected Pakistanis who don't think twice before insulting nation's memories and experiences by their version of 'truth', and just love to piss on everyone's parade.
How hurt some of the War Veterans must have been by Dawn's utterly disrespectful and duplicitous heading? They owe people an apology.
Re: Myth about winning 1965 War
Indeed both countries should celebrate 1965 war but they must also realise that war is not the solution but a problem.
Both countries should focus on human development instead of war hysteria
India started this whole 1965 war 'carnival' sheet this year, but for Pakistan it was very important to resume Defence Day celebration to mark the success of Zarb e Azb, return of peace in Karachi and Balochistan, and to send people of Pakistan a much needed moral and psychological boost in the wake of increased LoC firing by Indian, blatant threats of attack and proxy wars by enemy. We have every reason for marking Defence Day and 1965 as for us it marks a heroic tale of survival and national spirit which is once again being felt today by Pakistanis! Britain did not overtake Germany, but they do indeed celebrate successfully resisting the Nazisby to the best of their abilities. What's wrong if Pakistanis do this? The question of who started the war, or who won the war will always remain disputed.
I think I'm just getting tired of self hating Indianphilic Pakistanis who with agenda love to dilute power balance between both countries, and re-write History, and erase the animosities in process. They think they are doing a great public service by re-writing history with another agenda. I mean just shut up, Germany, France, Britain and Italy are best friends now, but that doesn't mean two Great Wars did not happen the way it happened. Or you stop talking about World Wars all together.
Just because you want everyone in Europe to get along, and remain best friends forever, doesn't mean you re-write the history. In West, History is an institutionalised subject with ample level of primary evidence available for researchers.
In Pakistan, you have no national 'evidence' bank to write narratives, no proper academic research institutions and practices, no real sources available to analyse, assess, evaluate cross check, reference, cross reference to write proper history. All it takes is any Tom, Dick, Harry to say something 'different' or any Jack to write a 'memoir' and that becomes 'truth' 'fact' or real history for those who don't like the existing common facts.
This is history in Pakistan.
Re: Myth about winning 1965 War
To some lame Indianphile intellectuals....India has every right to mark, celebrate, remember 1965 war, but Pakistanis should sob, hold their heads down in shame, wail and look like undignified and miserable buffoons with sorry existence. Why? They failed to give Lahore and Sialkot to Indians? Pathetic. May such intellectuals never find ground in Pakistan. What a nasty insult to nation's collective spirit of survival and self belief.
Yeah good thing Germans never had such self hating jerks and fools in their country. What does Imran know German sense of self respect, identity, unity and spirit of survival
Ms. Jolie and me agreeing on something... Signs of dooms day :)
Re: Myth about winning 1965 War
I am not talking about this. There should have been no war at all which could have saved Pakistan's economy, many lives and perhaps avoidance of breakup in 1971. I have yet see if any one has challenged the guy who was talking about defeat in 1965. If you think he is lying than prove it.
Wars are ugly, it is as simple as that, i don't think so anyone here is advocating war or is a war monger ( and i am not talking about fanatics who are in govt in India), Peace is what Pakistan has wished for, and peace is what we should get but not at the price of our dignity or freedom or independence..
Once war breaks out, it is then to fight and not to runaway from it because your enemy has invaded one of your main city with a half a million men or your enemy have brought one million men ( one of the highest since crusades and Ghaznavi) to your border...
1965 was the same, a border clash at Chumb was turned into a full scale war by our neighbors, what do you suggest, Pak-Army should have allowed them to take whatever they want??? Pakistan fought well and well enough to only stop enemy at the gates but to take some land in their country... nevertheless it was not decisive battle, it has yet to come, but to our victory we never let them have what they came for... as a matter of fact, we also did some serious damages to them...
Re: Myth about winning 1965 War
Ridiculous... 1971...
Do you realize that the Pakistan Army was separated from West Pakistan by over a thousand miles, surrounded by Indian troops on all side and a hostile populace within ? There was no way they could have won given the circumstances. And the reason they had to surrender is because they had no place to retreat too...
1971 is by no means an accurate assessment of the capacities of the Pakistan Army. Any future war, if there ever is one would be along the present border of Pakistan and her seas. Now that is a different situation all together.
Whether Pakistan won or lost is up to debate, but one thing is certain.. The country withstood an assault by a force that greatly outnumbered its own. Given that India is nearly ten times the size, that they could hold out against them and not allow the Indians to overwhelm them is an accomplishment worthy of respect, and speaks volume for the quality of the Pakistan forces.
Seperated from West Pakistan??? You do realise East Pakistan was 'home ground'??
Before the war Army said they will fight to the end, never surrender.....and then they surrendered. A lot of excuses don't justify their performance.
How did it 'withstand the assault'?? they surrendered!
PAF has always been professional and is respected internationally. The same cannot be said for Pak Army.
Re: Myth about winning 1965 War
Seperated from West Pakistan??? You do realise East Pakistan was 'home ground'??
Before the war Army said they will fight to the end, never surrender.....and then they surrendered. A lot of excuses don't justify their performance.
How did it 'withstand the assault'?? they surrendered!
PAF has always been professional and is respected internationally. The same cannot be said for Pak Army.
Typical jiyala reply. Pakistan is more important than your corrupt dynastic PPP
Re: Myth about winning 1965 War
sarkar, his last paragraph was in reference to 65 war not 71 … hence “withstood the assault” 
Re: Myth about winning 1965 War
Indians are expert at propaganda and now re-writing history. Its to be expected since we have been in a war like state with them for much of our existence. So instead of countering their BS its very disheartening to see our own countrymen reinforcing their propaganda.
Re: Myth about winning 1965 War
Ok, my mistake. My posts refer to the 71 war where Pak Army got trounced.
This is a simple fact.
Re: Myth about winning 1965 War
@Sachaydino](http://www.paklinks.com/gs/members/sachaydino/)
We stood up to a nation 10 times bigger then us. We stunned them.
So much so, that they never attacked us again. Only back stabbed. Us.
If this is not victory what is ??
Re: Myth about winning 1965 War
What a dumb statement.
What does PPP have to do with Pak Army performace in war??
Re: Myth about winning 1965 War
Indians are expert at propaganda and now re-writing history. Its to be expected since we have been in a war like state with them for much of our existence. So instead of countering their BS its very disheartening to see our own countrymen reinforcing their propaganda.
Too much closet racism and extreme hatred for a national institution due to political agenda. Have you seen how PPP supporters and sympathisers or people belonging that side of the world use 1971 war to rub salt in people's wounds. To mock and abuse national institution. How miserable and petty are they?
Send racist PPP jiaylas to Germany. How the on bloody earth all mighty Germans lost its industrial territory to French, lost Two Great Wars, cowardly signed Treaty of Versailles, produced a deadly fascist force and ideology that mass murdered country's most educated and talented community. They got the country divided and ruled by foreign superpower for 40 years? Why Germany even exists and why is it again a regional powerhouse?
Send PPP Jiaylas and their associates to Gerrmany to remind them what a pathetic nation they are and how their armed forces deserve to be drowned in pacific, and the country has no right to exist. Which country loses Two Great Wars and gets divided?
Who needs enemies when your country is full of traitorous self hating jerks. Those types have never played any important role in building nations! History is the witness of this.
In the world of Jiyalas....*Germans ko doob ke mar jana chahiye. *They have no right to celebrate their their nationhood. They bloody lost both Great Wars! Can you believe it?
Re: Myth about winning 1965 War
Ms. Jolie and me agreeing on something... Signs of dooms day :)
The fact that love for the country, pledge to defend her honour and dignity triumphs all political differences! :)
Racists critics blinded by extreme hate for an institution due to political agenda fail to realise that if Pakistan Army was so bad and useless, then what Saudi, USA, UK, Turkey, Iran, European powers, Russia did to rich and prosperous Syria, they could have done the same for young, unstable and oh so artificial Pakistan with utmost ease if it wasn't for our Armed Forces? India alone could've taken half of Pakistani territory in 1965 given the size of their Army. We can certainly take out one day to honour and celebrate our defence
I grew up in countries that know how to remember their fallen soldiers and survivors who defended their borders, despite losing empires, territories, men and global prestige as result of long and deadly wars, and despite the fact their old sworn enemies are now their friends and partners. None of that has stopped them from acknowledging their journey, identity, sacrifices, national spirit and unity.
My grandparents still remember the breathtaking community spirit of 1965 war. I know a War Veteran that I greatly admire, all these people hating know jack sheet about with spirit soldiers defended the motherland.
And ask all those villagers along Punjab border what they have to say for their Army and it means to them! If bunch of "non Punjabi" racists want to be piss paraders.....go ahead do it. Lines are being drawn in the country, so go ahead and isolate yourself to make it easier for others.
Re: Myth about winning 1965 War
I am not talking about this. There should have been no war at all which could have saved Pakistan's economy, many lives and perhaps avoidance of breakup in 1971. I have yet see if any one has challenged the guy who was talking about defeat in 1965. If you think he is lying than prove it.
Excuse me? The onus is on him to prove how Pakistan "terribly" lost the War, and argue against the narrative with FACTS and EVIDENCE. Making an inflammatory trollish comment doe not qualify as 'history' or truth.
I hope you and that academic (more like parchi academic) know how 'terribly' losing a war looks like. It might resemble something like America losing Vietnam? Germany losing the WWII? Or Japan getting nuclear attacked? Now I hope you and others know the definition of 'terrible defeats'.
But first of all - get this fact straight - Gibraltar was a disputed territory not an international border!
Yes Pakistan did not lose or lost terribly for the following reason:
No major territory from Pakistan was captured by the enemy despite Indian's Army numeric strength
Attack on Lahore was repulsed which Indians had originally planned to invade. If Pakistani saved its cities, villages and towns from being captured, then how can that be qualified as 'terrible' loss?
Indians left their tanks and equipment behind on different locations. So clearly they could not advance.
Staggering performance of PAF and Pakistan's air supremacy to drive the Indians back.
The war only lasting 6 months, if India was winning, why did it not carry on fighting to exhaust much smaller Pakistan Army and make advances in Lahore and Sialkot and capture parts of rural Punjab? Why did India came to talks in Tashkent if she was winning so superbly and Pakistan losing 'terribly'?
At worst, the war was drawn with Pakistan being the weaker and smaller side successfully defending itself and India falling way short of achieving its original aims. So how exactly how you say Pakistan lost the war 'terribly'? They failed to capture Amritsar?
As with human and economic losses, they occurred on both sides. Such is the nature of the War. Don't bother coming with the rhetoric that there should no war blah blah blah. Despite facing humiliating defeat in Vietnam, your host country the Great America still went into Iraq and Afghanistan, and lost again! So don't use any ideal wishy washy romantic retorts to make any lame digs at Pak Army. Wars are unfortunate, they shouldn't happen but they do break out! Your Zulfi Bhutto was really excited about war, and often remembered as one of the chief strategists!
We should indeed advocate peace without compromising the dignity of our national institution.
Re: Myth about winning 1965 War
Too much closet racism and extreme hatred for a national institution due to political agenda. Have you seen how PPP supporters and sympathisers or people belonging that side of the world use 1971 war to rub salt in people's wounds. To mock and abuse national institution. How miserable and petty are they?
Send racist PPP jiaylas to Germany. How the on bloody earth all mighty Germans lost its industrial territory to French, lost Two Great Wars, cowardly signed Treaty of Versailles, produced a deadly fascist force and ideology that mass murdered country's most educated and talented community. They got the country divided and ruled by foreign superpower for 40 years? Why Germany even exists and why is it again a regional powerhouse?
Send PPP Jiaylas and their associates to Gerrmany to remind them what a pathetic nation they are and how their armed forces deserve to be drowned in pacific, and the country has no right to exist. Which country loses Two Great Wars and gets divided?
Who needs enemies when your country is full of traitorous self hating jerks. Those types have never played any important role in building nations! History is the witness of this.
In the world of Jiyalas....*Germans ko doob ke mar jana chahiye. *They have no right to celebrate their their nationhood. They bloody lost both Great Wars! Can you believe it?
.
Re: Myth about winning 1965 War
Three Pakistani officers pose for a picture in front of the imposing structure of the ancient Rajasthan Fort at Gotaro. This was one of the chain of forts and other fortifications captured by Pakistan’s Desert Force during September 1965.
A picture showing the rout of Pakistani army at the hands of the Indian army. :rolleyes:
Re: Myth about winning 1965 War
Everyone, pls keep your emotions in control. No vulgar language or personal attacks will be allowed. Pher na kehna, warning naheeen dee thee!
Re: Myth about winning 1965 War
The panic which prevailed amongst the Indian troops while fleeing from Chhamb can be seen from this picture. It shows an Indian Army Truck, a jeep with a trailer and AMX tank abandoned in the middle of the river Ravi. The gun of the tank is facing to Pakistan side ready to fight. But the tank crew along with other occupants of the truck and the jeep would rather choose to run for their life than fire their guns.