Re: My thoughts on a recent trip to KSA...
^ Nice post!
Re: My thoughts on a recent trip to KSA...
lol there was no misunderstanding. The mutawwis in the Holy Mosques are rude and batameez with non--arabs.
I Agree With You :)
Re: My thoughts on a recent trip to KSA...
oh getting few dhakkay here and there doesn't count as an injustice in my book.
When there were less facilities in Makkha there was more hospitality in people.....besides, just imagine Indians or Pakistanis or Bangladeshis hosting such event, it'd be a total disaster.
..
C'mon - if some one pushes you in UK - you would definitely make a scene of it - so why not in KSA ....
No doubt - Saudis are the one of rudest/racist/ignorant nations I have come across ...
And for you kind info - Every year in Pakistan , Annual Talighi Ejtimat get hosted by tablighi jamat and we dont see any such events happening there ..
Even in Aashura majalis and Juloos every year - we dont see such yokes happening !
Re: My thoughts on a recent trip to KSA...
as some posters have already mentioned, the "segregation" talked about in the first post is not for any discrimination based on nationality. they group together people who understand one language and they try to explain them the manners, dos and donts of visiting the sacred place. as its a very much known and agreed upon thing that we (most of us) people from Pakistan (and india+bangladesh) have weird ways of doing things which a lot of shirk and stuff, its more prevalent in the womenfolk (because of less exposure and less religious knowledge) they try it keep it clean. a lot of men even do strange things which are not supposed to be done.
yes but agree that there is widespread discrimination against all nonarabs not specifically against pakistanis. and its not only in the KSA, its in all arab countries (speaking from experience). but its comparatively lesser in the sacred cities of Makkah almukarrama and Madinah almunawwara. at least i've such experience.
Re: My thoughts on a recent trip to KSA...
I Agree With You :)
how do you even know that to say you agree??? do you know what she means by mutawwis??? and if i'm not wrong, are not you a non-muslim?? as far as i remember its that way (not by looking at your location), sorry if i'm wrong, no offense.
Re: My thoughts on a recent trip to KSA...
Firstly, don't just jump to conclusions about me or our circumstances, when my sister got into an argument with the lady it was because she was pushing, and my sister being feisty (annnd...we gave her a BIG lecture about being patient ) didn't take it too well..me and my mum eventually got her to calm down AND we were not in ihram - we went into ihram when we went to Mecca not Medina.
I'm not defending my sisters behaviour - What's wrong is wrong - I don't like people thinking they have it all figured out..
If you don't like what's been said or you don't agree, you can give constructive criticism - I'm all hears but keep your negativity to yourself - there are plenty of other threads on this forum - go and explore away...
BTW this is directed at people who think they can make pathetic assumptions about my experience...
And those who do not think this is a big deal, should know that you should not even raise your voice in a mosque because there are certain etiquettes you should follow... being holy mosques surely these rules should be sternly followed...
People should not set low standards for ourselves by letting such incidences and others people have mentioned be pushed under the rug...
As I have said before, the division due to being able to give instructions in certain languages is news to me and something I needed to figure out hence me posting this thread...
As for racial tensions - I'm not entirely convinced that's its my 'misunderstanding' - I think Pakistani women were being treated more harshly than other women...
Barhal - I hope people bear these things and other incidences people have mentioned in mind, so we do not make such mistakes ourselves...
Re: My thoughts on a recent trip to KSA...
Right. Bomb blasts don't happen in sunni shia gatherings in Pakistan.
Re: My thoughts on a recent trip to KSA...
..
C'mon - if some one pushes you in UK - you would definitely make a scene of it - so why not in KSA ....
London riots. Enough said.
Re: My thoughts on a recent trip to KSA...
Hareem, I really don't understand how you are comparing what goes on in other countries and even other parts of SA to the holy locations.
Re: My thoughts on a recent trip to KSA...
Some of my general observations.
One reason there are so many problems with the ladies side of the pilgrimage is because of the lack of space and/or time designated to them.
The Pakistani groups that come have not been given the right guidance. Of course the authorities will get annoyed when you have aunties wearing lawn suits and chadars that only cover their top halves. And they do lack basic manners. From what I saw, the Malaysian and Indonesian groups were incredibly well organised and polite.
There are faults at every level. But what annoyed me is that everyone is tarred by the same brush based on skin colour or ethnicity.
Re: My thoughts on a recent trip to KSA...
Hareem, I really don't understand how you are comparing what goes on in other countries and even other parts of SA to the holy locations.
I'm just preparing myself for the worst. I don't have anything personal against the OP nor I disagree with the other posters. I just wanna make sure these things don't scare me or stop me from performing hajj.
Re: My thoughts on a recent trip to KSA...
^^ You'll be alright inshallah...just bear in mind your patience will be tested but make sure that you are kind and patient regardless of what anyone throws at you - for that you'll be rewarded greatly...also be kind to others - you'll find some people will ask you for favours - some of them (mainly old people) may ask you to get them zumzum water etc...you'll get rewarded for any assistance you do provide...
Inshallah your hajj/umrah will be accepted...
Re: My thoughts on a recent trip to KSA...
I thought it was standard to hate on non-Arabs in the gulf region. Yes, I love to generalise
Re: My thoughts on a recent trip to KSA...
yes pakistanis are amazingly unorganized, but it does not mean that the rent-a-cops can act in such a prejudiced manner.
especially..especially... for a religious site.
and pakistanis have nothing, nothing on sudanese and nigerian pilgrims, anyone who has gone for hajj and umra and has seen that posse in action knows what I am talking about. Forget delays or attire, they are actually an active hazard to those around them, I have experienced their stampedes first hand and am glad I am alive to tell the tale.
but hey, if we are okay with profiling and different treatment by rent-a-cops at masjid e nabwi, maybe we should not be so upset about profiling and different treatment at airports at frankfurt and JFK either, right?
Re: My thoughts on a recent trip to KSA...
^I'm okay with the security measurements/treatments at the airports. I'm not okay with what happens at hajj but...if that what it takes to complete your hajj then so be it.
Re: My thoughts on a recent trip to KSA...
sure if that is what it takes to complete hajj than so be it, you don't abandon your hajj because some power tripping bigot rent-a-cop is being a jacque-arse, but you can always speak up against it, then and/or afterwards
what that with the saying, if you see a wrong, stop it with your hand, if you can't do that, stop it with your words, and if you can't even do that at least think and know it is wrong..
Re: My thoughts on a recent trip to KSA…
Well the most ANNOYING women were definately the iranians, they are all very butch with their black chadors and really omg they push really hard! It was also annoying how they used let their chadors trail along the floor, posing a bad safety risk, i never encountered it with women wearing abayas. At the Prophet’s shrine I remember I got punched in that back by one of them, so it definatly wasnt an accident, I was only 15 at the time when I went to umrah. I was very lucky though I managed to touch the black stone and kiss it too and touched the kabah a few times but it wasnt really rushed at the time.
And I admit there is racism there, but that’s the saudis for you, they are racist to everybody even other arabs (egyptians) and african blacks etc and people don’t react well when they know you are pakistani, its definatly not right, but i just hate it when pakistanis have this victim mentality that’s its just them but too be honest some of the pakistani WOMEN tehre give us a bad rep, there are plenty of beggars in gold zevaraat whinging you for money, and say dirty words to you when you refuse. Not to mention tons of desi scammers, coming up to you saying they need money they lost their passport etc, i never encountered anyone form other nationalities doing this. I know you see somali beggars but they aren’t really annoying you feel sorry for them (especially the ons with no limbs :/)
Not to mention Pakistani women have now been singled out and are forced to wear abayas by the saudi governemnt in order to do haj because they don’t know how to dress properly, which is so embaressing, you know everyone has their cultural dresses, not everyone has to wear arab clothing to be modest, but the fact that PAKISTANI women have been singled out its really shows where the problem is -
. I saw plenty of women with half arms and see through clothes, they’ve obviously been getting lots of complaints with this subset of women thats why this action was taken. You don’t see saudi arabia banning indian/bangladeshi or far eastern pilgrims on the other hand the indonesian/phillopean women were just delightful, well organised and wore more modest clothes (their traditional baju kurung or tunic) even though they didnt wear abayas.
Re: My thoughts on a recent trip to KSA…
newsreport on pakistani women having to wear abayas to haj
Re: My thoughts on a recent trip to KSA...
Hajj is supposed to be a difficult journey and little tests do come along all the way, no matter how much convenience in terms of facilities or cordial treatment somebody might receive. But it's an incredible journey. Racism, nationalism and all such problems exist everywhere. And not in Saudi only.
I have seen Arabs' bias against Pakistanis but then again I have also noticed Pakistani people aren't the best of the crowd even in such holy places. And it's just not Pakistani ppl but also Indians, Bangali ppl. I have seen some of them do such silly, embarrassing things at times, unfortunately !
Re: My thoughts on a recent trip to KSA...
I just came back from Hajj trip and I think because I was kind of told what to expect, not much surprised me. I found the security people not very affective although I did not experience any rudeness from them. I am sorry to generalize but the most annoying group I found was of Bangladeshi men. It seems that they think that only they are there for hajj and everyone else is on some recreation trip. They would selfishly push you and pass over/under/through you at any expense.
I did not see any biased or racism but noticed that taxi drivers and wheel chair pushers were equally opportunity rudist and harsh to every one, however if you can talk to them in Arabic then you may be able to bargain a little better price.