My biggest regret for being an athiest/agnostic

Society Religion & Philosophy
21

Re: My biggest regret for being an athiest/agnostic

sigh no reply from Yea_Boii...

22

How does God unlimited and infinite punish a finite human being for infinity?

23

Hi there,

Lectures by Dr Gary Miller will answer your most questions [if not all]. I suggest you listen to the following lectures [apart from others];

1. Nature of Belief
2. Reason and Revelation.
3. History of Religion
4. Basis of Muslim Belief
5. Amazing Quran [2 different lectures]

[Google 'gary miller nadeem light upon light' to get these and other lectures in audio format]

As to the subject origin of man/Evolution, one book I'll recommend reading is;

What is the Origin of Man? The Answers of Science and the Holy Scriptures by Dr Maurice Bucaille

Just google 'witness pioneer what is the origin of man?' to get an online copy of the book.

24

Kindly re-phrase your question. It doesn't make sense.

25

I just meant that punishing someone for infinity for a finite crime doesn't seem too reasonable.

Blue Whale..
26

You're awesome.

27

As soon as you understand what the opposite of 'finite' is (which it doesn't seem that you really do) - you'll answer your own question.

28

Sarcasm?
I doubt anyone here would praise a Murtid.

29

Huh?
Opposite of finite=infinite
If i commit a crime, I should be punished accordingly.
How can someone who lived for 60 years be punished for eternity?
It's really not fair especially considering there isn't much evidence in Gods favour anyway.

30

1) You are wrong about eternal punishment. You may be confused by non-Muslim concepts.

Here are examples of the Islamic concept:

Surah 78:21-23

[On that Day,] verily, hell will lie in wait [for those who deny the truth] - A goal for all who are wont to transgress the bounds of what is right. In it they shall remain for a long time.

Surah 6:128

...] He will say: 'The fire shall be your abode, therein to abide- unless God wills it otherwise.'

These do not convey the meaning of perpetuity, do they?

I think your misunderstanding is with the word 'khaalidoon' - have you studied this matter at all? If not, I recommend that you do.

2) There is no word to describe the opposite of finite except INfinite.

Finite refers to things that we can comprehend because it is limited (we can investigate the bounds and characteristics of finite things).

So infinite is?

It's an admission of the limitation of human thought.

Infinite is our term of reference for whatever is outside our understanding.

Ps - Heaven is eternal.

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It's amazing (and almost naive) how we demand the use of our own yardstick as to what is 'fair' and 'unfair' for matters in realms that we know nothing about.

In any case, if the evidence 'for' God is not sufficient for you, then you don't have anything to worry about anyway.

What R U Doing??
32

In urdu translation I have come across the word "hamesha" meaning forever. You're the only Muslim whos claiming hell isn't eternal. OFcourse many people will only spend sometime in Hell but people who reject Him and Satan will spend eternity in Hell.

  • The doom will be doubled for him on the Day of Resurrection, and he will abide therein disdained forever"[Quran 25:68]*

Isn't Satan supposed to be in Hell forever? I doubt Allah made eternal Hell just for Satan.

[quote]
2) There is no word to describe the opposite of finite except INfinite.

Finite refers to things that we can comprehend because it is limited (we can investigate the bounds and characteristics of finite things).

So infinite is?

It's an admission of the limitation of human thought.
[/quote]

Why does the unlimited God expect limited minds to believe in Him when they clearly don't understand the concept of unlimited?

[quote]
Infinite is our term of reference for whatever is outside our understanding.

[/quote]

God is unlimited, we don't understand unlimited, but we have to still believe in Him or suffer His wrath?
That really doesn't sound divine.

[quote]
Ps - Heaven is eternal.
[/QUOTE]

Heaven is eternal but Hell isn't? How come?

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In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful.

I don't know where to begin.

Like I said, if the evidence for God is not sufficient for you - you don't need to worry (because if one doesn't submit to God rationally, then he wouldn't have any reason to submit to His Miracles (the Qur'an) and the discussion of the ayat is futile). Unless you're just arguing gratuitously - which I doubt.

If you're on the fence, then you're perfectly capable of studying the miraculous nature of the Qur'an for yourself and come to your own conclusions through proofs (please do go further than Urdu translations).

And just to clarify... As for me being 'the only Muslim claiming hell isn't eternal'...

  1. Do you know of Al-Jawhari? He's just one example of the same interpretation.
  2. I'm just telling you what the Ayat of the Qur'an say. You cannot exclude the ayat that suggest it to be a limited time [78:23], and the ultimate caveat: 'unless God wills it otherwise' [6:128]. This is why I was trying to explain to you that concepts of 'time' and 'eternity' are limited to our current existence - they have a completely different meaning in the next life, if any at all. In fact, *even if *you give 'eternity' the meaning of never-ending time - it is not rational to conclude that Allah swt could not control that time or end it - because if eternity was greater (more powerful) than Allah swt - then He would be limited - and wouldn't be Allah.
  3. An illustration of Allah swt's Mercy and His Will: The Prophet said, "When the people of Paradise will enter Paradise and the people of Hell will go to Hell, Allah will order those who have had faith equal to the weight of a grain of mustard seed to be taken out from Hell. [Sahih Al-Bukhari Volume 1 Number 21].

Final food for thought:On the authority of Abu Hurayrah (may Allah swt be pleased with him), who said that the Prophet said: Allah swt the Almighty said:

“I am as My servant expects Me to be. I am with him when he makes mention of Me. If he makes mention of Me to himself, I make mention of him to Myself; and if he makes mention of Me in an assembly, I make mention of him in an assembly better than it. And if he draws near to Me a hand’s span, I draw near to him an arm’s length; and if he draws near to me an arm’s length, I draw near to him a fathom’s length. And if he comes to Me walking, I go to him running.”

(Hadith Qudsi, Al-Bukhari)

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Being merciful contradicts with eternal hell. You can claim it's not eternal but most Muslims would disagree. Kaffirs, mushriks, murtids, will burn in Hell along with Satan for eternity.

[quote]
Like I said, if the evidence for God is not sufficient for you - you don't need to worry (because if one doesn't submit to God rationally, then he wouldn't have any reason to submit to His Miracles (the Qur'an) and the discussion of the ayat is futile). Unless you're just arguing gratuitously - which I doubt.
[/quote]

I am open to debate, I am not stubborn either. I don't post much on religion section but this thread was specifically about agnostics/atheism so I jumped in. Don't doubt my intention, I am not here to hurt anyones feelings, just a healthy discussion regarding islam vs agnosticsm/atheism.

[quote]
If you're on the fence, then you're perfectly capable of studying the miraculous nature of the Qur'an for yourself and come to your own conclusions through proofs (please do go further than Urdu translations).
[/quote]

I have raid Maududi's translation and many different tafseers. Sorry, I didn't find anything miraculous.

[quote]
And just to clarify... As for me being 'the only Muslim claiming hell isn't eternal'...

  1. Do you know of Al-Jawhari? He's just one example of the same interpretation.
  2. I'm just telling you what the Ayat of the Qur'an say. You cannot exclude the ayat that suggest it to be a limited time [78:23], and the ultimate caveat: 'unless God wills it otherwise' [6:128]. This is why I was trying to explain to you that concepts of 'time' and 'eternity' are limited to our current existence - they have a completely different meaning in the next life, if any at all. In fact, *even if *you give 'eternity' the meaning of never-ending time - it is not rational to conclude that Allah swt could not control that time or end it - because if eternity was greater (more powerful) than Allah swt - then He would be limited - and wouldn't be Allah.
  3. An illustration of Allah swt's Mercy and His Will: The Prophet said, "When the people of Paradise will enter Paradise and the people of Hell will go to Hell, Allah will order those who have had faith equal to the weight of a grain of mustard seed to be taken out from Hell. [Sahih Al-Bukhari Volume 1 Number 21]. [/quote]

Will Satan be in eternal Hell or not?

Superficiality
35

That doesn't make any sense. You can't punish a finite being for infinite time, because in order to do so, the person must have to be infinite also. Something is infinite when it always has been in existence. It doesn't have a beginning or end. It's unmeasurable.

36

I agree with this.

That's why the first thing I suggested to the questioner was to gain a better understanding of the opposite of 'finite'.

37

Well it is upto God to prove his exsistence. Right? that's like me saying that unicorns exist and asking you to prove that they do NOT exist?

So the burden of proof is on God to prove it's existence. And don't say that the air we breathe, the trees, grass is proof since that while may proivde proof of a higher being, it does not prove existence of specifically of an islamic God.

38

Exactly! Religious folks put it out as if they have figured out God. If their claim is that God is eternal, incomprehensible, all-knowing, then how could they claim to know what God wants by following a scripture that's written by men? There's no proof that any of the religious scriptures are from God. Seriously, there's no logic there..

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Re: My biggest regret for being an athiest/agnostic

^^

Lol, people who run after logic never find ALLAH or religion. They only find themselves confused and keep running in circles.

I saw on wiki-Islam, all who converted from Islam to any religion, they were running after logics.

40

Sarge your not giving Miss_Noland the right kind of Lollypop.