Muslims: Twisted beyond recognition?

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: Muslims: Twisted beyond recognition?

They would hardly be classified as religious people...Many 'supposedly' religious people belonging to religious outfits would hardly be termed as Muslims let alone religious people...I know people from Jamiat who drank...

You are talking about groups and actions which represent those groups...And no doubt amongst those groups would be people of a virtuous and noble character...

I am talking about individual ailments I have seen and witnessed amongst Muslims in Muslim countries which have become acceptable...

Let's not talk about groups but individuals...What kind of self righteous, bigoted, hypocritical and intolerant Muslims have you seen?

The term intolerant is a relative and broad term...My believing in the fact that homosexuals, Ahmadis and Bahais are not Muslims would make me an intolerant in your eyes...Although, I am simply declaring what I know from the Quran and Sunnah...O'Reilly might be termed as an intolerant person, because he advocates violence against Muslim countries specifically and abhors everything Islamic...Yet, he would be termed as intolerant by many because his rhetoric is based on nothing but his personal dislike for Muslims and includes ridicule...

Do you understand what I am getting at?

So, intolerant to me would also be someone who believes that homosexuals, Ahmadis and Bahais are Muslims because he is being intolerant, in my views, to the teachings and commands of God and His Messenger (pbuh)...

So, let's just concentrate first on the individuals you know who are hypocritical, bigoted and self-righteous...

GS OLD Flooderzzz...
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Re: Muslims: Twisted beyond recognition?

Speaking of groups, etc.:

006.064 *
**YUSUFALI:* Say "It is Allah that delivereth you from these and all (other) distresses: and yet ye worship false gods!"

006.065 *
**YUSUFALI:* Say: "He hath power to send calamities on you, from above and below, or to cover you with confusion in party strife, giving you a taste of mutual vengeance - each from the other." See how We explain the signs by various (symbols); that they may understand.

PICKTHAL: Say: He is able to send punishment upon you from above you or from beneath your feet, or to bewilder you with dissension and make you taste the tyranny one of another. See how We display the revelations so that they may understand.

006.066 *
**YUSUFALI:* But thy people reject this, though it is the truth. Say: "Not mine is the responsibility for arranging your affairs;
PICKTHAL: Thy people (O Muhammad) have denied it, though it is the Truth. Say: I am not put in charge of you.

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Re: Muslims: Twisted beyond recognition?

They would hardly be classified as religious people...Many 'supposedly' religious people belonging to religious outfits would hardly be termed as Muslims let alone religious people...I know people from Jamiat who drank...

correct on all counts, but you considering them muslims or not does not change the fact that they consider themselves model muslims and then their actions are very contrary to what one may think of what a muslim should be like.

You are talking about groups and actions which represent those groups...And no doubt amongst those groups would be people of a virtuous and noble character...

possible indeed, I know some very good jamiaat people. and I know some very decent non religious ppl as well.

I am talking about individual ailments I have seen and witnessed amongst Muslims in Muslim countries which have become acceptable...

and you have only shown one side of the ailments, you have not pointed out the ailments of the self righteousness, or of opressing women, or of racism, sectariansim that have become accepted as well in many circles. Many of these parade as part of religion...

Let's not talk about groups but individuals...What kind of self righteous, bigoted, hypocritical and intolerant Muslims have you seen?

groups are made of individuals. without individual members what is a group?

The term intolerant is a relative and broad term...My believing in the fact that homosexuals, Ahmadis and Bahais are not Muslims would make me an intolerant in your eyes...Although, I am simply declaring what I know from the Quran and Sunnah...O'Reilly might be termed as an intolerant person, because he advocates violence against Muslim countries specifically and abhors everything Islamic...Yet, he would be termed as intolerant by many because his rhetoric is based on nothing but his personal dislike for Muslims and includes ridicule...

sure you have your views and they may make you intolerant in the eyes of some. As you talk about acceptabilitty of certain social ills which all seem to be a western influence, you have failed to poitn at other social ills which are locally grown and so accepted that most do nto even consider them ills. the dowry practices, the karo kari, the zaat paat.. you know the drill.

Do you understand what I am getting at?

100%, do you see what I am saying though?

So, let's just concentrate first on the individuals you know who are hypocritical, bigoted and self-righteous...

you want me to list names here? what good would that do if you dont know who they are? or do you want me to list well known individuals? and what good is that exercise anyways

why dont we concentrate more on you goign back and adjusting your list of acceptable social ills in muslim countries and make them more representatibe of the ills that we see rather than just the choice few you have posted :) we seem to concentrate on the social ills present in .00001% of the population and show that to be the downfall..tegh fact of the matter is that there are ills in other parts of the population that contribute more to it.

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Re: Muslims: Twisted beyond recognition?

^^

Karo kari, dowry and zaat paat are cultural wrongs, not religious, yet as Muslims we accept them...I'll take from you as adding to my list...

But, I do not represent just .00001 percent of ills...Dealing in interest is not .00001%...It's a huge percentage...

Gheebat, it carries an awesome punishment...We do it...And not a small %age either...

Looking at spouses the way we do...Huge percentage...

I don't know how your friends or company were or are, but a zaani, when he declares what he has done, got backslaps, cheers and hurrahs from his friends...Again, from my first hand experience, a huge populace...

Men and women intermingling is a cultural accepted norm...The idea of a Zananakhana has but died out...It is the norm today...There is nothing attached to it...

And no, do not name names....But do point out what form of bigotry or self righteousness you mean...In what way you witnessed it...

Right now, you have just painted just about every Muslim that belongs to a certain group with a broad brush...Forget the groups...

How many self righteous people do you know and what makes them self righteous and how does it go against Islam...That is all I want...

If I am painting one side of the extreme as you claim then surely you can give me an insight into the other side as well since you are bringing them into the picture...

What is it that they do that is against the Quran or Sunnah...In what way? Why? How is it contrary to what Islam teaches?

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Re: Muslims: Twisted beyond recognition?

Karo kari, dowry and zaat paat are cultural wrongs, not religious, yet as Muslims we accept them...I'll take from you as adding to my list...

Shukran, these are cultural wrongs, and we as muslim individuals accept them at large.

But, I do not represent just .00001 percent of ills...Dealing in interest is not .00001%...It's a huge percentage...

agreed majority of people deal with interest in one way or the other. and if one feels that modern day interest is teh same as riba then yes it is a widespread ill among muslims.

Gheebat, it carries an awesome punishment...We do it...And not a small %age either...

sure, gheebat is something that is pervasive.

Looking at spouses the way we do...Huge percentage...

possibly but not the same as interest or gheebat I would say and your initial post is a little misleading because it makes it seem like an issue just as pervasive as the previous two.

I don't know how your friends or company were or are, but a zaani, when he declares what he has done, got backslaps, cheers and hurrahs from his friends...Again, from my first hand experience, a huge populace...

but not a norm, not a standard operating procedure and not widespread to the same level as gheebat, your initial post makes it look like that is commonly acceptable in every household or something.

This was not and is not an acceptable or praised action in any of my friends, maybe I chose to move about in a more mature and sensible crowd. who knows.

Men and women intermingling is a cultural accepted norm...The idea of a Zananakhana has but died out...It is the norm today...There is nothing attached to it...

on the other hand women being suppressed is an accepted cultural norm in many areas as well, whether it is not allowing women to study in rural areas of Pakistan or not allowing women to drive in Saudi Arabia. well over there its more than just socially acceptable, its been made into a law. Lets talk about both extremes here right, while I am not comfortable with the type of openly mixed dance parties that i have witnessed in pakistan (strange since they seem to happen less among us bbcd/abcd types) I am also against the maltreatment of wome and keeping them as second class citizens especially in our rural areas.

And no, do not name names....But do point out what form of bigotry or self righteousness you mean...In what way you witnessed it...

many examples, pulling a guy wearing jeans and a t shirt who was in the front rows for namaaz and making him stand in the back because he was not wearing 'islamic clothes' by some dude wearing a see thru kurta :)

being declared wajib al qatl and being one with the kaffir by someone I know, just because I live in a "non-muslim' land.

People on this very forum suggesting that girls not covered up in burqaa deserve to be leered at and groped in bazaars.

Right now, you have just painted just about every Muslim that belongs to a certain group with a broad brush...Forget the groups...

okay forget the groups but its that type of behavior that is very common. The groups seem to attract most attention because they are most visible. As I stated, i know some very good ppl in jamiaat and in jamaat e islami, but then I see many psychos there as well.

How many self righteous people do you know and what makes them self righteous and how does it go against Islam...That is all I want...

I gave some examples above, I have run into .... how does it go against islam, ummmmm, ppl standing for jamaat at iftaar time and making teh servant or driver styand in the back.. or worse making the servants pray separately..seen it all in pakistan.

If I am painting one side of the extreme as you claim then surely you can give me an insight into the other side as well since you are bringing them into the picture...

I did already. But now that you have heard that such things exist, why just take my word for it as in yoru own post earlier, go investigate yourself, see it with your own ees, hear it with yoru own ears draw your own conclusions :)

ibn e inshaas urdu ki akhri kitaab has the description of a daira, i.e a circle. he states in the end, aik daira islaam ka bhi hotya tha, pehlayuss mein logon ko daakhil kiya jata hai, aaj kal sirf nikala jaata hai :)

btw, you may want to consider changing the circles you move about in, why hang out with people who cheer zina, and promote drinking. I decided not to hang with either those groups or the maniacal mullah types a long time ago. very good for the blood pressure.

What is it that they do that is against the Quran or Sunnah...In what way? Why? How is it contrary to what Islam teaches?

I think I gave some examples...treating women as second class citizens in the guise of tradition and religion ( kinda like those moron taliban did and which goes on in our rural areas), supposed religious people, sending their servants to pray separately ( what happend to aik hi saff mein kharay ho gaye mahmood o ayaaz..na koi banda raha na koi banda nawaaz), people being yanked from the front of jamaat because they were not wearing kurta shalwaar.

But as I said..i agree with your own statements made earlier, go observe, learn, see with yoru own eyes, hear with your own ears.
narrations by ppl on GS can only take you so far :)

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Re: Muslims: Twisted beyond recognition?

See, here's the thing...

Being yanked from front because you are wearing unIslamic clothes, has never happened in my lifetime...In fact you are the first person I have ever heard it from...

Being declared wajib-ul-Qatl because you are in a Kafir land, this is also what I am hearing for the first time...

As for the Burqa thing, I know who said that and why...And it wasn't a Burqa, the poster said 'covering one's self immodestly'...

Now these are examples which I have never heard nor read (except here) in my life...And I believe most guppies will say the same...

But this does not represent the 'religious' people...What kind of a nutcase pulls anyone from a row? What kind of an idiot says you are wajib-ul-qatl for living in a Kafir country? Who makes their driver stand in the back row? It can only be someone non-religious...

In fact, these aren't examples of religious people at all...Just a couple of nutcases who don't know the basic tenets and manners of Islam? Probably they were either converts or someone born into Muslim families but never opened the book of Quran or Sunnah and that's why their behaviour...

But, they don't represent an affliction, a plague...Something which we have come to expect or accept as normal...In fact these are abnormal from any viewpoint...

I am talking about afflictions that have become normal in Muslim homes and families and individuals...

As for my company, it has changed...It defintely is not the one I hung out with before...But, they do represent a large portion, believe it or not...And very acceptable in their circles...

I still am clueless from your side as to what would constitute bigotry and self righteousness in religious people, or what unIslamic things they did...

But first, let us see what constitutes a 'religious' person...

Is it someone praying five times a day? Long beard? Hafiz-e-Quran? Haji? What?

Then we can dive into what it is that they do that is unIslamic...

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Re: Muslims: Twisted beyond recognition?

lajjo baal ki khaal nikal lo, the point is that someone who is drinkign and screwing around does not consider himnself religious, the people i mentioned considered themselves religious.

I am as clueless as you are to what it means to be religious. How and why can ppl like MMA and jamat e islami and jamiaat talk about imposing religious system when they themselves are far from it due to their own actions.

when we talk about ills of society, one can twist religion to make it convenient for them to be more 'mod' as some here would say, and at the same time, there are others who would twist it to make it convenient for them to support their idiotic views such as women's rights.

these things in our society are commonk they are an affliction they are a plague, just because they are not as obvious as gusy and girls having booze parties in DHS does not mean that they do nto happen.

Majority of the people look at the very extreme 'mod' types and say hey look at these ppl, they are the root of evil etc etc. sad fact remains that the reason we are in the state we are in is because issues are present in all classes, and are of all types.

your post started by showing a number of erros among us, the ones that I mentioned are major issues, the sectariansim, the religious strife, the persecution of women under guise of religion, its not the people who are so far from religion that it is just a mere name to them, but it is people who consider themselves religious, and whether they twist it to suit their own cultural mindset or whether they have complexes that they twist religion to solve..they are an issue as well. Lets just say a womanizing, bar hopping, beer swigging muslim is probably not enough into religion that he will start sectarian strife. So who is behind the sectarian strife. :)

I am sorry I could nto decrease yoru clueless-ness, but I guess it should prompt you to go and try to evaluate things, do what I did, talk to people, go to different types of events, go to diff types of areas and you will see the good, the bad and the ugly off diff types in diff groups.

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Re: Muslims: Twisted beyond recognition?

That is not really the answer I have been seeking from you for the past six or seven posts and trying to get you to explain what you mean by 'religious' people and what you find 'unislamic' in their behaviour...

It seems I will not be getting the answer anytime soon just responses that explain...Nothing...

So we will leave it that...

hume adakara banana he
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Re: Muslims: Twisted beyond recognition?

my dear fraudia,we people have the habit of blaming everything on others...like u have blaming every beard person a terrorist...do i need to tell wht "modernize roshan khayal" pakis and ngo,s r doing here ????
i wonder how many well known moulanas and buzurq from binoria and the like u have met?? offfcourse just not a single...but yes i have seen shaved multi millionaire person crying in front of a maulvi buzurq to saved his son life from death.....by the way do u know y agencies have let hundreds of members of tayyaba and shahaba moving freely??....for tht answer,u need contacts in agencies which u dont have my dear;)

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Re: Muslims: Twisted beyond recognition?

what I show as supposedly religious you point at them as being nt religious, arayu bhai in their mid they are, they are the supposed self declared guradians of the faith.

are the ayotollhas religious, maybe not by your standard but they think they are, they act as they are, they go around pontificating religion and shariah..and then you see them suppress sunnis and other minorities. same goees for MMA leaders..

yeah theya re not eligious, not in my books, theya re wanna be religious, just liek taleban were, using religion to their own tesited psychotic purposes.

the religiously sanctioned curb on peopel practising their faith in KSA, women driving, etc… they are supported by the mutawas and all, who are supposedly religious people.

the answer is there, you just dont want to hear it :slight_smile:

and yes lets leave it at that. bhains kay aagay been bajanay ka shoq naheen hai mujhe :wink:

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Re: Muslims: Twisted beyond recognition?

**
my dear fraudia,we people have the habit of blaming everything on others…like u have blaming every beard person a terrorist…do i need to tell wht “modernize roshan khayal” pakis and ngo,s r doing here ??? **

oh not at all, my view is that lets spread the blame equally, when we see the deterioration in our cultures its not just your westernized youth that are doign it, its also your ultra orthodox supposed religious kath mullahs type who are messing things up just as bad. Just like every person with a beard is not a terrorist, every person wearing jeans is not some anti-islam. but if we are going to talk about ppl who have twsited religion from one side, lets not forgetppl who have twisted it from thr other side. lets blame ppl who are promoting and accepting premarital sex or what nots, but lets also blame ppl who are twisting religon to oppress women and minorities.

I am very aware of what “modernized roshan khiyal” people are doing in Pakistan, and yet I am very aware of what “self declared defenders of the faith” are doing there as well.

i wonder how many well known moulanas and buzurq from binoria and the like u have met?? offfcourse just not a single…

that is your assumption :slight_smile:

but yes i have seen shaved multi millionaire person crying in front of a maulvi buzurq to saved his son life from death…

and in that case the sahved multi millionaire and the maulvi buzurg are both idiots because the maulvi buzurg has no power to save the guys soin from death, its all up to Allah.

by the way do u know y agencies have let hundreds of members of tayyaba and shahaba moving freely??..for tht answer,u need contacts in agencies which u dont have my dear;)

Not that this point was relevant in the discussion magar desion ko shekhian marna zaroori hota hai, pehlay jamaih binoria, next agencies, whats next you wuill claim for some insider connections at student biryani too?

Like I would go around trying to impress ppl on a bulletin board with my ‘contacts’ :slight_smile: challo khelo koodo khush raho.

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Re: Muslims: Twisted beyond recognition?

Lajawab,
Why shall a pious person come in contact with so much bad doers.?

" A person is known by the company he/she keeps"

Believe it or not there are people who might seem to you far from religion neither have bad company nor they come across such a litrature , because they do not have intrest to read such things and waste their time, they just overlook and turn the pages for good respectable thing to read. And to know all what you have written up one must either be enjoying the same kind of company or he/she reads this kind of litraure because it is of his interest.

And the kind of people I have mentioned above are in real sense very religious. They do not keep on druming themselves as very very religious. **Perhaps their profession to earn their butter and bread does **not come from the place where all the people think they are the best and are the most religious.

So do not bother yourself. Good people know who is good as they usually have their own criteria.

But for the people u have written they all are from the same catagory; either they are poor or rich.** " JUST PRAY TO GOD "he should keep us away from such a company" **

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Re: Muslims: Twisted beyond recognition?

11) Many are 'OK' with homosexuality and accept it as such...

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Re: Muslims: Twisted beyond recognition?

Lajavab, just peaked into your journal..

you suck man.. youre a hypocrite! talk about religion like ur so pious..

creep :disgust:

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Re: Muslims: Twisted beyond recognition?

Did I ever claim piety? I just try to be a good Muslim, that’s all…

hello yellow shellow
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Re: Muslims: Twisted beyond recognition?

mem sahib,what has he done so bad that you call him a hypocrit. Dont you think your being a bit harsh?

Pyare, motay se kado jaise bachon