Muslims Are Good Folks

Oh foolish!! how did these countries become moslem countries in the first place?

http://www.atour.com/religion/docs/20010803a.html

Indigenous Peoples Under the Rule of Islam

Western culture tolerates religion but is known to have certain groups that discriminate against race and colour. Whereas in the Islamic states of the Abode of Peace, they are more likely to tolerate race and colour but discriminate totally against religion. Recognition and practicing of religion in a limited capacity in the Middle East other than the Jewish and Christian faiths is unlawful and forbidden. Other indigenous religions which had existed at the time of the conquest of their countries still remain but are diminishing. Islam considers them as false religions and intends to phase them out anyway. This applies to all Islamic states of the Abode of Peace, including the dwindling indigenous religion, namely, the Yezidi, known as the devil worshippers in Iraq. This sect arose out of the general She’ah movement around the 11th century (it confines its practice to a few villages in northern Iraq). Other native religions like Zoroastrianism (Zardoshti) in Iran, Buddhism and Hinduism in other Asian, Far Eastern and South Pacific countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh, Malaysia and Indonesia are looked at objectionably and with cautious indifference. The ultimate aim is to strip these native religions of their economic power, restrict their practice, and gradually lessen their religious influence to extinction. In Iran the Zardoshti and Baha’i already feel the pinch. Indonesia and Malaysia have already begun to curb the trading activities of the successful non-Moslem Chinese to limit their wealth under the pretext of evenhandedness with the natives. To survive, other religions consider themselves offshoots of Islam such as Al-Alawi, Ismaili, The Twelvers and Durzi (the latter exists in Syria, Lebanon and Israel). Such minority religions adopt Moslem names and more often side with the Moslems rather than Christians and live under the shadow of Islamic culture. Their survival depends on their gradual integration into the Islamic pot (Hiro, 1989: 91).

soul, any surprises there? Pakistan even persecutes "majority" religious leaders, not just minority. The Govt makes its own laws and implements it in own way, there is no "rule", its not "Islamic" to begin with :p

yeah..effing army seems to be running out of land everywhere.

even so, do you intend to purport that your posts somehow indicate emigration of minorities enmasse from muslim countries?

I'm guessing the incidents of idiocy you do find in pakistan pale in comparison to what goes on in india seemingly all the time. take gujraat for instance.

unless ofcourse you can point me to an incident in recent decades where thousands of minorities were looted pillaged raped killed..

Wot happened in Guj is shameful....i condemn it...Wot happened to innocent hindoo as well as innocent moslems.

BUt you never get tired of chewing that one gum...right?? How many more such incidents can you show case....and remember...guj is only one state amongst the 28 other states, [its only 1/28th of india]...while guj was bleeding...rest of india was peaceful....dose that count?

and how dose that prove that your 2% minorities are treated well? pray!

Wot about the hindoo temple thats facing demolition??

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by soul: *
Wot happened in Guj is shameful....i condemn it...Wot happened to innocent hindoo as well as innocent moslems.

BUt you never get tired of chewing that one gum...right?? How many more such incidents can you show case....and remember...guj is only one state amongst the 28 other states, [its only 1/28th of india]...while guj was bleeding...rest of india was peaceful....dose that count?

and how dose that prove that your 2% minorities are treated well? pray!

Wot about the hindoo temple thats facing demolition??
[/QUOTE]

Your argument is non sequitur. It adds nothing to the running argument of the thread: purported indications that minorities in muslim countries feel the need to emigrate en masse to greener pastures. The attempted destruction of a Hindu temple is no indication of that.

Our army has some nasty aspects, commercialisation one of them. Please do not think that these aspects are limited to Hindus alone. See the okara controversy where an entire villlage is being terrorised and being forced to leave their ancestral homes because its "army property". Now while this is a highly regrettable feature in our otherwise much-appreciated army, and while there is a great deal of social debate on what the role of the army should be, it is in no way relevant to the argument at hand, viz. the large-scale victimisation of minorities in muslim countries.

In your position I would have pointed out other, more compelling, existing incidents that reflect in a sad light how lack of education (including religious education) and innate compulsiveness can combine to give bigotry criminal proportions, which some might and do interpret as a feature of Islam. However, being in my position, I can point out a number of instances in your country, not just Gujraat my friend, that make any tiff this side of the border seem like a car parade.

No, pogroms, mass riots, dramatic as they may be, are not a feature of our country.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ravage: *

Your argument is non sequitur. It adds nothing to the running argument of the thread: purported indications that minorities in muslim countries feel the need to emigrate en masse to greener pastures. The attempted destruction of a Hindu temple is no indication of that.

Our army has some nasty aspects, commercialisation one of them. Please do not think that these aspects are limited to Hindus alone. See the okara controversy where an entire villlage is being terrorised and being forced to leave their ancestral homes because its "army property". Now while this is a highly regrettable feature in our otherwise much-appreciated army, and while there is a great deal of social debate on what the role of the army should be, it is in no way relevant to the argument at hand, viz. the large-scale victimisation of minorities in muslim countries.

In your position I would have pointed out other, more compelling, existing incidents that reflect in a sad light how lack of education (including religious education) and innate compulsiveness can combine to give bigotry criminal proportions, which some might and do interpret as a feature of Islam. However, being in my position, I can point out a number of instances in your country, not just Gujraat my friend, that make any tiff this side of the border seem like a car parade.

No, pogroms, mass riots, dramatic as they may be, are not a feature of our country.
[/QUOTE]

it much easier to criticise than actually running a country of 1 billion
who can elect one leader with such a relgious and ethnic diveristy.
many countries with 10 or 20 million people have such hard time
ruling theselves. what program you are talking there were no leaders
like stalin or mao you will find. no khans either.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by rvikz: *

it much easier to criticise than actually running a country of 1 billion
who can elect one leader with such a relgious and ethnic diveristy.
many countries with 10 or 20 million people have such hard time
ruling theselves.
[/QUOTE]

that be as it may, it isnt the topic of this thread. i am not interested in whatever justifications you may have. i have no interest in running your country of 1 billion. however you decide to run it, kindly stop your people from indulging in periodic bloodfests.

and back to the topic, yahudi, soul are you going to come up with anything to support this piece of trash thats come to be so typical of you guys:

[QUOTE]

Muslims always boast that somewhere in far history Jews and Christian lived a happy life in Islamic States.
The fact is (from our cotemporary days) that wherever Muslims are in majority, the people of minority community start locating some other residence. We must know the reason.

[/QUOTE]

or will yahudi do the decent thing and post a retraction and apology?

Mr Ravege, very, very sorry, I have to repeat something you escaped.

Let us forget 1948 and Take a start from 1960, what was the ratio of minorities in (West) Pakistan and what is it today in 2003.
And let us see if really minorities have not continuously migrated from Pakistan?

In India even after Bombay, Godhra and Gujrat, Muslims do not migrate. Any idea, why?

It is not a condition of an Islamic State, but in practice we have seen that wherever, in any locality, where Muslims are in bulk, people from other communities do not like to purchase property, and if living among them, like to find some other residence.

give me your figures, soul.

[QUOTE]
Your argument is non sequitur. It adds nothing to the running argument of the thread: purported indications that minorities in muslim countries feel the need to emigrate en masse to greener pastures.
[/QUOTE]

Any idea why zorastrians had to flee from persia after it invasion by peaceloving arabs and settled in gujrat between evil hindoos??

any idea why jews fled israel when it was invaded??

any idea why sindhis fled from sindh during partition to settle in india?

Any idea why b'hais have their main temple built in delhi, but not in iran??

Any idea why assyrian christians helped US against their beloved sadaam?? And why they fled the main land iraq and settled in northern belt in no flying zone....

any idea why it took 300 years for copts to adopt islam??

Any idea why animist sudanese are fighting civil war against arab origin peaceful rulers?? [just to brush you up,... SLAVERY is still in pratice, here in moslem land....arabs are making natives their slaves, simply coz they are black. how rascist!!] oh no...natives are not fleeing for a change....they are butting off arabs instead...gleeeeeeezzzzz!!

your figures, soul, your post 1960 figures.

a lot of baloney doesnt meant some of it isnt baloney. we'll go through your arguments one at a time.

[QUOTE]
give me your figures, soul.
[/QUOTE]

huh????????? fig?????? of wot?????

apologies soul, i believe i should have said yahudi..who mentioned post 1960 stats as evidence.

[QUOTE]
your figures, soul, your post 1960 figures.
[/QUOTE]

you are in sleep, man .... dat was not me...it was yahudi...

okie....its fine.
may be we both are confusing!!

reposting it...just incase it got missed-

quote:

Your argument is non sequitur. It adds nothing to the running argument of the thread: purported indications that minorities in muslim countries feel the need to emigrate en masse to greener pastures.

Any idea why zorastrians had to flee from persia after it was invaded by peaceloving arabs and settled in gujrat between evil hindoos??

any idea why jews fled israel when it was invaded??

any idea why sindhis fled from sindh during partition to settle in india?

Any idea why b'hais have their main temple built in delhi, but not in iran??

Any idea why assyrian christians helped US against their beloved sadaam?? And why they fled the main land iraq and settled in northern belt in no flying zone....

any idea why it took 300 years for copts to adopt islam??

Any idea why animist sudanese are fighting civil war against arab origin peaceful rulers?? [just to brush you up,... SLAVERY is still in pratice, here in moslem land....arabs are making natives their slaves, simply coz they are black. how rascist!!] oh no...natives are not fleeing for a change....they are butting off arabs instead...gleeeeeeezzzzz!!

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by soul: *

Any idea why zorastrians had to flee from persia after it invasion by peaceloving arabs and settled in gujrat between evil hindoos??

[/QUOTE]

You tell me. Thats one part of history im unfamiliar with.

[QUOTE]

any idea why jews fled israel when it was invaded??

[/QUOTE]

The romans.

[QUOTE]

any idea why sindhis fled from sindh during partition to settle in india?

[/QUOTE]

not just the sindhis. the punjabis. Likewise muslims from almost all parts of India.

[QUOTE]

Any idea why b'hais have their main temple built in delhi, but not in iran??

[/QUOTE]

possibly because Bahauddin didnt exactly make a lot of Muslim friends. There are plenty of Bahai's in Pakistan and Lebanon though.

[QUOTE]

Any idea why assyrian christians helped US against their beloved sadaam?? And why they fled the main land iraq and settled in northern belt in no flying zone....

[/QUOTE]

perhaps you could quote figures? while you're at it quote numbers of muslims saddam killed. Do we have a penchant for killing majorities too?

[QUOTE]

any idea why it took 300 years for copts to adopt islam??

[/QUOTE]

what the eff is that supposed to mean? Hinduism has been around for ..well eons. How come it never spread beyond that tiny little strip of the planet?

[QUOTE]

Any idea why animist sudanese are fighting civil war against arab origin peaceful rulers?? [just to brush you up,... SLAVERY is still in pratice, here in moslem land....arabs are making natives their slaves, simply coz they are black. how rascist!!] oh no...natives are not fleeing for a change....they are butting off arabs instead...gleeeeeeezzzzz!!
[/QUOTE]

[/QUOTE]

once again, everything arab is not everything muslim. the debate here is about MUSLIM tendencies. If arabs are mistreating people because they're black, they're not being very good muslims.

Obviously b’coz they were persecuted by peaceloving moslems and force to abondon their faith…why else would any one flee from their homeland …and become a refugee in an alien land…with hard conditions imposed on them??

this is a zorastrian site, it gives its side of the story…it will help you to see why it took so long for islam to take its roots there…ofcause they still call it an alien religion…

http://www.derafsh-kaviyani.com/parsi/ali666.html

http://www.derafsh-kaviyani.com/english/

In 690 A.D., the Islamists invaded Israel…

excuses…he and his followers have no problem in india and israel…
not heard of their existence in pak…which is there temple there?? and also give us there fig.

copts are egyptians, sweets.
If hinduism would have spread at the point of sword…it could have too managed itself well beyond their small strip of land…by the way its in majority in bali in indonesia …

you are contradicting …native ‘animist’ are fighting moslems…how you read it is up to you…

I dont wish to wade through your material but I am willing to concede that this might be one of (possibly) many instances where Muslims persecuted minorities. But you refuse to see the fact that as Islam is a religion, its not magic. Muslims back then reflected the sensibilities of that time. Any persecution of minorities is very dubious islamically, regardless of what you may say, and that is what respected scholars throughout time have maintained. The contentious issue here was if that was “contemporary”, since human sensibilities have evolved since then.

and jews were dispersed into the diaspora during the byzantinian and roman invasions, well before the muslim invasion. i suggest you look up an “origin of israel” website. One muslim conqueror is credited with destroying a temple though, if that helps your argument.

He and his followers dont have problems in India and Israel because thats where they fled to. And they existed in Israel before it became a jewish state my friend.

If Islam spread at the point of sword as you purport, how about when the Mongols invaded? Are you saying we were more ruthless than them? How much Mongolian culture do you see in Iran today?

And that really is something you and I will never agree about. And its irrelevant to the argument if the contemporary Muslim world is remarkably hostile for minorities.

i’m not contradicting myself. I assure you that anyone who oppresses people because of colour is not being a very good Muslim. I suspect it is more of a cultural practice that is not widespread in the Muslim phenomenon, and thus a local phenomenon and not a Muslim trait.

Dear Ravage, you do not know the population figures of your country? Very bad!

In (West) Pakistan when partition trauma was over and people started a normal life, the minority % ratio was over 7 %.
Today Hindus are less than 1.5 % and over all minority ratio is less than 3 %.

You want facts. Open the search in your web browser, write ‘minorities in pakistan/ find….and you will get many eye opening sites.

And pls tell me whom you blame for continuous migration of minorities from Pakistan, the Govt or the Muslim community or you blame both of them.