It's in every culture, religion has often nothing more to do with it, than people using it wrongly and misleading interpretation of religions to justify something awful they do.
In our Islamic communities however, people are very quickly angered if you question something. It's much more difficult to talk about these kind of issues, because of the culture. There is also a lot of violence against females in Hindu families. It hasn't really got much to do with Islam, it's our eastern culture I think. And we often don't allow these problems much discussion.
Just like some Jewish people always drag the Holocaust in every discussion when you question something they do, some of our own Muslims drag discrimination and rascism whenever they are questioned or critisized about something like this.
But I agree, it's also the media here who has often given the false impression that this happens in every Muslim family.
The reasons why many females are treated so badly in Muslim community is because people misuse Quranic verses to do whatever they want and because not Islam but our culture often gives females less justice. It's true, the saas-bahu relationship is sometimes used against the female as well, it's not just the male who does this to the female.
And when we keep getting angry at every person who wants to discuss this problem and perhaps find a solution, how can we ever stop this injustice?
Perhaps it's the animal instinct in human nature which, when given the chance, takes over. The natural law of the strongest animal winning and surviving. Just look at the war crimes that people of different races and cultures have been guilty of throughout the ages. It seems that many humans, when given the chance in certain situations do the most awful things. Could that have something to do with the mistreatment of females in some cases? The male or the saas feeling the power over the wive or the bahu and then misusing that power, knowing that the wife or the bahu is dependent upon them and can't do much against their treatment of her? Human instincs can be positive and important too though, like a mother sensing her child is in pain or danger, in those cases they shouldn't be ignored. Maybe I'm completely wrong about this, I don't know. Just trying to understand why someone would (want to) hurt an innocent person.
Yeh but isn't it like you're not really suposed to do anything that shames your family and must be modest if you're a woman so if you go out in a miniskirt religion says a man can punish a woman for that (for doiung something dishonorable to the family)?
Yeh but isn't it like you're not really suposed to do anything that shames your family and must be modest if you're a woman so if you go out in a miniskirt** religion says a man can punish a woman** for that (for doiung something dishonorable to the family)?
During the khilafah of Umer Farooq(ra) there used to be bare breasted women walking around in Makkah, he didn't punish any of them.
And as for punishing your own wife or daughter doesn't mean you torture them or kill them.
Prophet Muhammad(SAW) in his life never struck a woman, a child or a slave. So how can you justify that men can actually beat women for not covering up?
[QUOTE**]
Men are the maintainers of women** because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.
[QUOTE]
Why there are so many acts of violence against women in Muslim Communities when Quran and Hadith strictly **forbid any type of violence **against them???
[/QUOTE]
Hareem will you please edit your post to allow for some types of violence sanctioned by the Quran and Ahadith?
I think one reason for the violence resonates from your post that men often believe Qur'an and Ahadith sanction violence against women, whereas in actual fact Hareem01 is saying the contrary.
Part of the reason must be that there is false information out there regarding Islam.
We dont punish these men enough. The punishments for beating a wife should be pretty severe, given that the crime can be proven. But then again, a lot of poor guys get wronged by such stringent laws too when women blame men for beating them when no such thing happened.
Imperfection is the state of humanity. Its the whole reason why there is a heaven and hell. :)
[QUOTE*]
Men are the maintainers of women* because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.
There is an error in this translation, because the rule is that you don't do all of those things at once. Its in a progression. So first, you admonish them. Then if they still keep misbehaving, then you don't sleep with them. If they still don't get the message, you have the ability to "beat" them, however you have to take into context the way that arabic word is used and the hadith's that demonstrated how the Prophet obeyed this order from God. The English word "beaten" should not even be used anymore in these translations, because "beating" is taken in a very different context these days.
So yeah...try posting more accurate translations of the Quran, before you start quacking away. Thanks.
The translation of ayah is wrong. “dharaba” means to strike.
The hadith in Muslim states that the Prophet (pbuh) in his Farewell Pilgrimage said: “Lo! My last recommendation to you is that you should TREAT WOMEN WELL. Truly they are your helpmates, and you have no right over them beyond that - EXCEPT IF THEY COMMIT A MANIFEST INDECENCY (fahisha mubina = adultery). If they do, then refuse to share their beds and beat them WITHOUT INDECENT VIOLENCE (fadribu hunna darban ghayra mubarrih).* Then, if they obey you, do not show them hostility any longer. Lo! you have a right over your women and they have a right over you. Your right over your women is that they not allow whom you hate to enter your bed nor your house. While their right over them is that you treat them excellently in their garb and provision.”
*“Mubarrih” is defined in al-Mawrid as “violent, intense, severe, acute, sharp, excruciating, tormenting, agonizing.” Qatada said as narrated by al-Tabari in his Tafsir (5:68): “Ghayr mubarrih means ghayr sha’in = not disgraceful/ outrageous/ obscene/ indecent [beating].” Muhammad Asad translates it over-figuratively as “not causing pain.”
And the hadith you quoted is from Imam Bukhari’s collection representing this topic "Chapter 203: WHAT IS TO BE SAID WHILE VISITING THE GRAVEYARD AND THE SUPPLICATION TO BE OFFERED FOR THE DEAD LYING IN THE GRAVES ".
So the purpose of this hadith does not justify “beating” , also it is narrative and it is not hukm of the Prophet(SAW) to the believers.
By the narrative it self it is clear that Aisha(ra) isn’t being indecent and therefore there’d be no premise for chastising or unless you’re saying that she’s an indecent woman.(audhubillah).
The Prophet(SAW) in the hadith tapped her chest and she felt pain but he(SAW) wasn’t beating her out of some indecent behaviour rather it must refer to something else.
Hareem I normally don't agree with you, but in this case: You go get him girlfriend! Mm hmm. one eye wider than the other, glaring at schmuck in post # 25
Nice topic. To be fair, most domestic violence against women is because of a culture (prevalent in many countries irrespective of religion) which gives too much control to men over women's lives and its society has an intrinsic societal gender bias towards men. Add to that the idea of objectifying women by attaching "honor" to them and their actions. Bottom line is that Muslim men like all men, hit women because they can get away with it in their respective societies.
But may I ask why you are surprised that Muslim men don't do what their religion clearly tells them to? I don't think its just ignorance. I think it's because, to human nature there is nothing more important in life than life itself. God/religion fill their compartmentalized purpose in people's lives but don't dictate all aspects of their lives.
Finally, I don't agree with your assumption that Islam completely prohibits violence against women as I think one way or other, Islam left the door open to allow some kind of "conditional" violence if women does xyz, instead of simply strictly forbidding violence by putting a verse in Quran against it. I don't think the men who hit women do it because of they misinterpret this verse (they would do that anyway) but God must have known that a certain minority of jerks would misinterpret this verse or use it to justify their actions.
Nice topic. To be fair, most domestic violence against women is because of a culture (prevalent in many countries irrespective of religion) which gives too much control to men over women's lives and its society has an intrinsic societal gender bias towards men. Add to that the idea of objectifying women by attaching "honor" to them and their actions. Bottom line is that Muslim men like all men, hit women because they can get away with it in their respective societies.
But may I ask why you are surprised that Muslim men don't do what their religion clearly tells them to? I don't think its just ignorance. I think it's because, to human nature there is nothing more important in life than life itself. God/religion fill their compartmentalized purpose in people's lives but don't dictate all aspects of their lives.
Finally, I don't agree with your assumption that Islam completely prohibits violence against women as I think one way or other, Islam left the door open to allow some kind of "conditional" violence if women does xyz, instead of simply strictly forbidding violence by putting a verse in Quran against it. I don't think the men who hit women do it because of they misinterpret this verse (they would do that anyway) but God must have known that a certain minority of jerks would misinterpret this verse or use it to justify their actions.
I think it's quite clear in the Qur'an and the hadith makes it even clear but people would misinterprete it anyway.
Hareem I normally don't agree with you, but in this case: You go get him girlfriend! Mm hmm. one eye wider than the other, glaring at schmuck in post # 25
[QUOTE]
I think it's quite clear in the Qur'an and the hadith makes it even clear but people would misinterprete it anyway.
[/QUOTE]
Not really. Tell me what's clearer as message for a mass of people?
"If your wife is not loyal to you (or commits some indecent act etc) then stop sleeping with her and beat her"
or
"If your wife is not loyal to you (or commits some indecent act etc) then stop sleeping with her but never resort to violence against her"?
Not really. Tell me what's clearer as message for a mass of people?
"If your wife is not loyal to you (or commits some indecent act etc) then stop sleeping with her and beat her"
or
"If your wife is not loyal to you (or commits some indecent act etc) then stop sleeping with her but never resort to violence against her"?
None of the above.
Quran first suggests to the husband to counsel, to stop becoming angry and think about it and talk to her.
and then about leaving them in beds and then "daraba" which is to strike her without any pain or mark, in other words without any violence.
and then call arbitrators, and in the end you can let them go.
Why there are so many acts of violence against women in Muslim Communities when Quran and Hadith strictly forbid any type of violence against them???
1) Is it because muslims mainly are ignorant of the teachings of their own religion?
2) Is it because those muslims misinterprete the teachings of Islam?
3) Or is it just the anger that muslim men can't control?
Or is it something else?
Violence has nothing to do with religion or gender. It is a mental illness of those who commit those crimes.
Does the violence against women does not happen in non Muslim communities , so called civilized societies ?
Do other societies and civilizations not forbid violence against anybody ? There are strict laws against even animals let alone in some societies but that does not stop people committing those crimes.
Were there no crimes during the days of our Holy Prophet(SAW) ?
Was there no spousal abuse during the days of Holy Prophet(SAW) Were there no requests for annulment of marriage by practicing Muslims during the days of our Holy Prophet(SAW) ?
If that was true then he(SAW) would not have to order cutting of hands or stoning to death , or lashing of criminals.
So the issue is not that Islam forbids something and people will stop doing those kind of things.
These things cannot be eliminated completely but reduced to minimum by enforcing laws and educating people.
Even in Saudi Arabia which has strictest sharia law these things happen but rarely, the reason is that the laws are implemented and carried out.
Violence has nothing to do with religion or gender. It is a mental illness of those who commit those crimes.
Does the violence against women does not happen in non Muslim communities , so called civilized societies ?
Do other societies and civilizations not forbid violence against anybody ? There are strict laws against even animals let alone in some societies but that does not stop people committing those crimes.
Were there no crimes during the days of our Holy Prophet(SAW) ?
Was there no spousal abuse during the days of Holy Prophet(SAW) Were there no requests for annulment of marriage by practicing Muslims during the days of our Holy Prophet(SAW) ?
If that was true then he(SAW) would not have to order cutting of hands or stoning to death , or lashing of criminals.
So the issue is not that Islam forbids something and people will stop doing those kind of things.
These things cannot be eliminated completely but reduced to minimum by enforcing laws and educating people.
Even in Saudi Arabia which has strictest sharia law these things happen but rarely, the reason is that the laws are implemented and carried out.
I'm talking about when Muslims justify domestic violence through religion.
I'm talking about when Muslims justify domestic violence through religion.
So are you taling about verse 34 of Sura Nisa which allows wife beating as per some translations and interpretations ?
Or am I missing something from this discussion ?
Excellent thread hareem :k: I think much of it has to do with the fact that our communities are usually very ill equiped to deal with women problems. In australia for instance the muslim women association of sydney doesnt even bother to reply to sister’s problem. Its merely a talk shop and then when the muck is brought out we say it is against islam and ofcourse it is. However we do little as per islam to protect women’s right and make options available for them. In pakistan the cultural context adapted from hindus and further reinforced by our stupidity is behind much of the treason. To top it all off the law and order situation is no secret, so for a woman to access the facility and make use of it is almost next to impossible. Educate women, give them voice and i dare say they will manage the rest. Because in pakistan we have strong absence of meaningful women presence in any sort of powerful positions (please dont bring B bhutto) the system doesnt advantage us.
My experience is that some bad apples are enough to rot the whole box especially when nobody is intent on taking care of them. And ofcourse voilence against women is not exclusive to muslims however that being said shouldnt as we muslims have a model in place which is the envy of others rather than an example of ibrat.