[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ak47: *
~the different posts on this thread just show the muslims holding 2 oppossing views.
there is the one camp which does'nt trust the west like America Britain and organisations like the UN.
and there is the other camp that looks up to the west and upholds there values like democracy and man made laws.
[/QUOTE]
There is one camp that has the sense to congratulate this woman on being the first to win a nobel prize.
Seminole
Getting what right?
Please elaborate further.
Fatehahmad, cheers, yours is a great dilogue.
And pls in the same tone tell us which theory compels Muslims to kill Muslims.
Mr. Yahudi,
How do I know about any theory 'which compels Muslims to kill Muslims'. In Holy Quran and Hadith, I have never come across any such thing. So when a Muslim kills a fellow muslims, it is to suit and satisfy his own religious and political agenda. Islam have no place for that!
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Risky: *
No - that doesn't put me in the camp of 'trust at all costs' which is what you are trying to prescribe. Yes I can change my mind, depending on whether I feel their policies are equitable, fair and proportional - its called pragmatism, flexibility and self-interest.
That's not exactly the point here - the point was that beliefs can be other then what you prescribe - regardless of whether you agree or not. Hence the world doesn't fall neatly into two pidgeon holes that you see.
[/QUOTE]
I don't know what you are saying, you made statement saying democracy is islamic
And you also said man made laws is divine gudiance
So can you back that up thats all i am asking to back your statement up with evidence.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by fatehahmad: *
Mr. Seminole,
So what is the 'Western Ideology'. I believe this is the same ideology that forces Hitler to kill million of jews. I believe this is the same ideology that forces Stalin to kill million of its own people. This is the same ideology which upto 13 years back, in south africa considered blacks to be third class citizens. I believe this is the same ideology which uptil only 40 years ago considered African Americans in US to a inferior race (still some place in south). I believe this is the same ideology with around 50% of divorce rate. I believe this is the same ideology with 12/13 years old girls giving birth to babies. I believe that this is the same ideology which gives permission to free sex and promote promiscuity.
Are you sure that western civilization is the answer?
[/QUOTE]
I could go down the list of the current situation and historical atrocities of Muslim societies but I think that would be seen as offensive. I'm sure if you are honest with yourself you are aware of them already. But every one is quick to say it is the way Islam is practiced and not Islam that is the reason for the lack of progress in the Muslim world for the past several hundred years. While I agree that western society is neither a panacea of morality nor bastion of righteousness, it is still way ahead in terms of human rights, self determination, and technological, economic and institutional advancements. If this ‘theory’ of Islamic superiority is not able to be practically implemented, it will remain a theory and Muslims will remain in the quagmire they find currently find themselves in.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ak47: *
I don't know what you are saying, you made statement saying democracy is islamic
And you also said man made laws is divine gudiance
So can you back that up thats all i am asking to back your statement up with evidence.
[/QUOTE]
do you wear man made cloths or god made cloths? do you ride man made
trains and buses or take man made medicines or eat some leaves
for your headache?
giving her nobel peace prize at a time when iran is in axis of evil and on USA and isreal's target list and when west is trying its best to bring in another revolution in iran, it seems like a good plan to give her this piece of s*** and make her more vocal and start the show. soon we'll see government collapsing, civil war starting and then some western puppet coming as the ruler to rule iran. just like iraq, egypt etc.
Baby Gulab, Why not! Cheers for the progressing kufr world!
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by BabyGulabJaman: *
giving her nobel peace prize at a time when iran is in axis of evil and on USA and isreal's target list and when west is trying its best to bring in another revolution in iran, it seems like a good plan to give her this piece of s** and make her more vocal and start the show. soon we'll see government collapsing, civil war starting and then some western puppet coming as the ruler to rule iran. just like iraq, egypt etc.
[/QUOTE]
Today my iranina friend told me that nobody in Iran had ever heard the name of this woman until she was awarded the nobel prize.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by yahudi: *
Baby Gulab, Why not! Cheers for the progressing kufr world!
[/QUOTE]
Progressing Kufr World,hmmmmm i don't consider bombing third world countries and occupying them progression!
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by shawaiz: *
Today my iranina friend told me that **nobody in Iran* had ever heard the name of this woman until she was awarded the nobel prize.
[/QUOTE]
Your "iranina" should be admired for confirming this from "everybody" in Iran. Must have taken a while. Your friend must think that if he/she don't know someone, then no one else would know that person too. No offence, but its so presumptous :-)
However, I am a non Iranian, and frankly, the first time I heard her name was when it was announced by Nobel committee a few days ago. I am sure she is doing splendid work for Iranians. The Nobel committee was quite frank in admitting that they are trying to make a political point by giving her the award, and not necessarily making her a Nobel Laureate on pure merit. Not sure, who else would have been a better candidate for Peace Prize this year, but if someone is thinking that giving this award to a liberal Iranian woman will somehow be a turning point in human rights for all Iranians, they should think again. The Burmese opposition leader was awarded Nobel Peace Prize a few years ago, and the poor lady is still incacerated in her home for years and years.
It’s enough dear Muslim folk. Have courage and congratulate Ebadi for her achievements. I assure you that it will not affect your reservation in hell or paradise.
what achievements? she is a vocal human rights critic. you have tons of them in western world and all they do is yap yap and more yapping in semenars, on tv etc but does their government listen to them? no way. this is the beauty of democracy. you get the freedom of speech choice and after that its done. you can talk the talk but you won’t walk the walk. she is doing the same. giving her nobel prize is of no use as nobel peace prize itself is useless. 
Yahudi
You seem to be hellbent in her achievements.
Why don't you list them and also confirm who and how they have benefitted the community she represents.
I assure you, in doing so you will not be reincarnated as a Muslim!
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by rvikz: *
do you wear man made cloths or god made cloths? do you ride man made
trains and buses or take man made medicines or eat some leaves
for your headache?
[/QUOTE]
I wear clothes made by a machine operated by man and take medicine but where did they come from and who created man and who gave man the ability to think and progress in science and technology and also who made man limited.
The question you should read again is to do with if man made laws like the so called democratic laws are divine guidance! that is what i asked evidence for!
Okay, me being stupid and all, i am willing to give this thread another shot. Let's try to stay on focus. Since i started this thread, i have the liberty of stating in which direction it was originally intended - because afterall, i started it. i haven't had time to read all three pages of this thread especially the comments that were insulting and rude. i skipped right over them. i wanted to separate the different strands resonating in this thread; here are the main viewpoints as i see them - if you believe you raised a point that is missing from the list below, feel free to add it ***respectfully***, preferably without calling me kufr, infidel, a secret Jew, or a self-hating Muslim.
i) Viewpoint #1: The Nobel Peace Prize is a 'kufr invention' (as quoted on page one). This Iranian woman is being utilized and manipulated as a tool by the west to promote their political agenda (Zionist-influenced). Basically, the awarding of this Nobel Peace Prize is meant to derail Muslims from their true beliefs, and impose western values and norms.
ii) Viewpoint #2: Shirin Ebadi is against the genuine principles of Islam, she is another self-hating Muslim.
iii) Viewpoint #3: Shirin Ebadi is using Islam as a tool to fight for the rights of women and children, she is NOT a self-hating Muslim and nowhere has she ever stated (or believes) that Islam is inherently evil and restrictive towards women. On the contrary, she is utilizing Islam to give women the rights that their religion accords them, but culture has stripped from them.
Now, these (as i understand it) are the three different predominant strands of thought echoing in this thread. If you want to disagree, please feel free to add more if i have missed any. Please do it respectfully because that is the way Muslims are supposed to argue as i am certain we all understand. You will make your point FAR, FAR more clearly to me if you don't call me names and i will DEFINITELY be more willing to hear your point of view.
Now, i believe in viewpoint number three. Nowhere, ever, has Shirin Ebadi ever stated that Islam is evil, subjects women to oppression, or anything similar of the sort. Have you guys not read some of her public comments? She has clearly stated that Islam is the solution, not the problem. If people are intent upon judging her religious beliefs without even meeting her - then that is a completely separate issue that this thread was not intended for. The discussion is moot from that point onwards for myself personally. We are not here to judge anyone, be they Muslim, woman, child, man, beast or what have you. If anyone of you has no sins and is faultless, has prayed 5 times a day since you hit puberty, have kept all your rozas since the day you hit puberty, have never lied, have never gossiped, have never sinned, then yes - let's start judging Shirin Ebadi. Even Prophet Muhammad, may Allah's peace and blessings be upon him, was not perfect - so how ON EARTH can any one of us claim to be superior to him (Nauzubillah!). So don't judge her character.. or at least, open up a separate thread where you can issue fatwas against her beliefs and her imaan. This thread is not interested in that type of discussion.
Re: the point about the Nobel Peace Prize - that's convenient, isn't it, for us to state that it's a "kufr invention". From that point of view, how many of us who are studying in western institutions aspire towards that "kufr" educational degree, whether it's a bachelors/master/phd - aren't those also "kufr" institutions spouting their "kufr" ideologies. Why do Muslims, last time i checked there were a few million at least in the States, partaking in these "kufr" institutions and reaping the benefits of their educational systems and programmes?
For myself, personally, Shirin Ebadi is someone we should look upto, not degrade and insult. To those Guppies who professed such negative statements in this thread, do you not see what you are doing - you are creating even further disunity amongst our ummah. Is this not something that we should be truly, truly, i mean truly, afraid of doing?
[quote]
And hold fast, all of you together, to the Rope of Allâh (i.e. this Qur'ân), and be not divided among yourselves, and remember Allâh's Favour on you, for you were enemies one to another but He joined your hearts together, so that, by His Grace, you became brethren (in Islâmic Faith), and you were on the brink of a pit of Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus Allâh makes His Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.,) clear to you, that you may be guided.
[/quote]
Shirin Ebadi is a fellow Muslim sister, who is not insulting Islam by waging this jihad. On the contrary, she is helping to propagate the TRUE Islam, not Iranian Islam, or cultural Islam, or patriarchal Islam, but the TRUE Islam. What in God's name is so wrong with that, i truly have failed to comprehend. She is helping her fellow Muslims, fellow Iranian women and children. Is this not jihad? Who amongst us can state that we have done as much to help women and children, as Shirin has? When you look in the mirror, can you state that you have done that? i for one cannot. Let's give her our help, our unity, our solidarity. Otherwise, in this divided condition where we split apart hairs of each other (but never indulge in self-criticism), we are simply tearing the global Muslim family apart. This is not Jewish propaganda, or George Bush's propaganda, this is a fact. If we aren't willing to stand together, then together we'll all just fall. It's as simple as that IMHO.
Please read my post above before reading this article. Would appreciate it.
Iran Nobel winner gets hero’s welcome, BBC, 14 October 2003
Thousands of people have greeted Iranian Nobel Peace Prize winner Shirin Ebadi in extraordinary scenes at Tehran’s city airport on her return to the Iranian capital.
Human rights groups and non-governmental organisations, swelled by crowds of local people, gathered at the city airport to give her a hero’s welcome.
The human rights activist, who has already used her elevated profile to urge the Iranian Government to allow greater freedom of speech, called for political prisoners to be released as she stepped off the plane.
Iran’s President Mohammad Khatami has urged Mrs Ebadi, the country’s first Nobel Peace Prize winner, to use her award for the good of Iran and world peace. He has also played down the significance of the award, saying it was “not very important” and was awarded on the basis of “totally political criteria”.
Noted for promoting the rights of women and children by seeking changes in Iran’s divorce and inheritance laws, she is the first Muslim woman to be awarded the Nobel Peace Prize.
The area surrounding Tehran’s Mehrabad airport was brought to a standstill by traffic jams. Many people simply abandoned their cars and walked the rest of the way, singing pre-revolutionary Iranian nationalist songs and chanting slogans calling for the release of political prisoners.
However, the crowd gave a hostile reception to a number of reformist deputies who turned up to welcome Mrs Ebadi.
They said the deputies had betrayed the hopes of those who had elected them.
Mrs Ebadi, 56, was said to be visibly emotional as she returned from a short trip to France, where she heard news of her award on Friday. It really was an extraordinary occasion, probably far beyond what the organisers had imagined would happen, says the BBC’s Tehran correspondent Jim Muir. **Many of her supporters at the airport, including a large number of women, wore white shirts or headscarves as a symbol of hope for peaceful change in the country.
Many of them were carrying white flowers too, symbolising their welcome for Shirin Ebadi.**
“I hope that all political prisoners will be freed,” said Mrs Ebadi.
“This prize is not only for me, but for all those in favour of peace, democracy, human rights and legality. The world recognises the fight of Muslim women, and this is my political message.”
The reception committee is believed to have included a number of internationally-known film directors and the popular captain of the country’s national football team. Hundreds of Mrs Ebadi’s supporters, including the president of France’s biggest human rights group, had gathered at Orly airport in Paris to bid her farewell.
Before her departure, she told the BBC that the Nobel prize had given her a new determination to defend the rights of women and children in her homeland.
BBC correspondent Sadeq Saba in Paris said Iranians throughout the world were celebrating this first prestigious award for their country.
Our correspondent says the Iranian Government appears to be confused about how to deal with Mrs Ebadi. The reformists have welcomed her achievements, but hardliners have condemned the award as an attempt by the West to weaken the Islamic government and promote secularism in Iran, he said.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Seminole: *
I could go down the list of the current situation and historical atrocities of Muslim societies but I think that would be seen as offensive. I'm sure if you are honest with yourself you are aware of them already. But every one is quick to say it is the way Islam is practiced and not Islam that is the reason for the lack of progress in the Muslim world for the past several hundred years. While I agree that western society is neither a panacea of morality nor bastion of righteousness, it is still way ahead in terms of human rights, self determination, and technological, economic and institutional advancements. If this ‘theory’ of Islamic superiority is not able to be practically implemented, it will remain a theory and Muslims will remain in the quagmire they find currently find themselves in.
[/QUOTE]
All i have to say is that if islam is practised correctly you will have no reason to believe that western society is way ahead in human rights or any other thing for that matter. History is full of those examples as well but you will have a hard time finding it in any " western library". Sure there are example taht you are referring to but they were not practising muslims. And you will not understand what a practising muslim is unless you understand what islam is. And please don't ask yahudi to help you understand.
Nadia, one thing for sure you that you got wrong is that she was being attacked personally. Nobody called her a kafirrah, munafiq, faseeq. Nobody was being judgmental about her.
In fact the Nobel Peace Prize Committee’s motive for awarding her the prize is being questioned or being ‘judged’.
Quote of Iran's President Mohammad Khatami form your post above (quoted below) seems that he is thinking in the same lines. I think he should know better than all of us here.
[QUOTE]
Iran's President Mohammad Khatami has urged Mrs Ebadi, the country's first Nobel Peace Prize winner, to use her award for the good of Iran and world peace. He has also played down the significance of the award, saying it was "not very important" and was awarded on the basis of "totally political criteria".
[/QUOTE]
An other quote from your post above (quoted below) shows that most of her supporters were Shah supporters. And you know that Shah had one of the worst human Rights record, perphaps only second to Sadaam.
[QUOTE]
The area surrounding Tehran's Mehrabad airport was brought to a standstill by traffic jams. Many people simply abandoned their cars and walked the rest of the way, singing pre-revolutionary Iranian nationalist songs and chanting slogans calling for the release of political prisoners.
[/QUOTE]