Re: Muslim Teacher Suspended For Wearing Veil
Muslim men should lower their gazes when women dress provocatively. But I never have understood why women dress that way, it seems they want the attention, so I say they deserve what they get or at least shouldn't be surprised.
Re: Muslim Teacher Suspended For Wearing Veil
which brings you round to immigration again. For me seeing hair or the face of a woman is nothing. Seeing the hair or face of a woman does absolutely nothing for me even if it's a very pretty one (most aren't, but that's besides the point). Of course in this country it is still modest for a woman to show her hair. Clearly, if Guy1 is anything to go by, for some people who immigrate to England, they can't control themselves..perhaps they are too used to women covering their faces? (AFAIK, many women in Pakistan dont cover their hair/ faces). Again, a question of what is modest to the majority of the people who live in the country.
Re: Muslim Teacher Suspended For Wearing Veil
^Key word in my comment was provocative.
Re: Muslim Teacher Suspended For Wearing Veil
roadrunner dear,u seriously need to show more brain rather then behaving like a naive person...ur post is quite wrong...
accepting facts is the most difficult thing in this world....
Re: Muslim Teacher Suspended For Wearing Veil
Veil is to keep her face hidden from men, veil doesn't mean she is living in a separate room or building. She didn't refuse to talk to men, did she? If a man feels segregated then its his problem and not hers.
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I do not buy into the idea that to educate a child you only need to be able to understand a voice. If this were true, everything could be done more cheaply and efficiently using robots or computers. There's something human about being educated by a teacher. Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that all my teachers never wore a Niqab, and I was able to communicate with more than just a voice.
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Did she hide behind some curtains when assisting the teacher? No, she was physically there so the children were able to see her actions if any. If you didn't have a veiled teacher it doesn't mean there shouldn't be any.
Re: Muslim Teacher Suspended For Wearing Veil
Say I am forced to stay in a room all day long. Noone sees me, noone visits. I communicate with people only through a telephone. Is this not a form of forced segregation on myself and society? Segregation after all means to seperate out (from society). Creating some form of barrier between yourself and other people is of course going to segregate you. It can be a physical barrier (such as a room), a visual barrier (such as clothing), a mental barrier (attitude).
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Did she hide behind some curtains when assisting the teacher? No, she was physically there so the children were able to see her actions if any.
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She was physically there and she can mae hand movements (no face movements though). But I still think there's only so much one can do with hand movements. Poin to someone, shake a finger is about it. A face can show a lot more. There's hundreds of facial muscles and just a paltry couple in the hand.
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If you didn't have a veiled teacher it doesn't mean there shouldn't be any.
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Well, I disagree. The UK is for the British people who have their own culture and standards (for better or worse). Since I come from the same background, I know what people are used to here.
Re: Muslim Teacher Suspended For Wearing Veil
The UK is for the British people who have their own culture and standards (for better or worse). Since I come from the same background, I know what people are used to here.
That kinds of sums it up, doesn't it? It is not in their culture to have women covering their faces - matter of fact it is a big part of their culture to observe facial expressions - and you can't force it as part of their culture. It would be fine to observe this practice in Muslim schools within other socieities, just as other religious practices are observed within religious schools. But to expect it to be allowed in non-Muslim schools is unrealistic.
Re: Muslim Teacher Suspended For Wearing Veil
sorry UK is no longer some homegeous society wit one culture, actually it has never ben, just ask the welsh and the scots 
but regardless its a multicultural society where ppl form all sides need to give and take, respect each others cultures and all as long as it does not interfere with people’s ability to work and delivr results
The british people are not just the english, irish, welsh and scots now. there are a lot of british ppl who do not belong to any of these ethnic groups, ranging from asians and africans to chinese and arab, eastern europeans and all.
so what is british culture, yes you see old timer fogies crying about merry old england, but sorry..merry old england was not compatible with a modern cosmopolitan lifestyle and a 21st century country and that is why it is gone.
Re: Muslim Teacher Suspended For Wearing Veil
Mr F, that is all fine and good except socieites change culture over time, not on a forced deadline imposed by a minority. Covering your face goes totally against centuries and centuries of culture. Non-verbal communication can be as important in that society as verbal communication.
The english, irish, welsh and scots have never had covering their faces as part of their culture. There is a reason that only the highwayman, executioner, burglar or today's hoodies cover their faces, it has had historic negative associations.
Even IF Muslims socieities were open enough that they welcomed non-Muslims and non-Muslims actually wanted to move there, could we expect their societies to adopt to their culture? Should they? Anyone who proclaims 'but we don't pretend to be an open and free society' - that excuse doesn't wash. If you don't advocate it for socieites you come from, then don't expect it in societies you migrate to. Customs and cultures change over time, but we are talking about thousands of years of culture development. With what, a few decades of Muslim immigration?
Re: Muslim Teacher Suspended For Wearing Veil
[quote=“Seminole”]
Mr F, that is all fine and good except socieites change culture over time, not on a forced deadline imposed by a minority. Covering your face goes totally against centuries and centuries of culture. Non-verbal communication can be as important in that society as verbal communication.
I dont see any forced deadline by minority for acceptance, i see a forced deadline from a majority for nonacceptance though
** The english, irish, welsh and scots have never had covering their faces as part of their culture. There is a reason that only the highwayman, executioner, burglar or today’s hoodies cover their faces, it has had historic negative associations. **
yeah but scots wearing girlie skirts has other historic associations as well but they dont get any laws to not wear em
**Even IF Muslims socieities were open enough that they welcomed non-Muslims and non-Muslims actually wanted to move there, could we expect their societies to adopt to their culture? Should they? **
what happens in other countries is completely unrelated to this discussion.
**Anyone who proclaims ‘but we don’t pretend to be an open and free society’ - that excuse doesn’t wash. **
Thats not even the argument. People like myself have no responsibility whatsoever to what happens in Saudi Arabia or Indonedia, just because I am a muslim and those are muslim majority countries. I am not from there, I am not a citizen.
** If you don’t advocate it for socieites you come from, then don’t expect it in societies you migrate to. **
why? why should my children have to deal with what happens in Pakistan a country that their father or mother are not citizens of, a country that al their garndparents left? T say that they can not speak up for their rights in th eonly country they know as their homeland until they go and advocate it equally for countries and societies that dont have any real conection to, is a silly argument.
I speak up more for bringing about change in Pakistan than I really should. I was not born there. I am not a citizen. Why is it my responsibility? My responsibility is my homeland, my country, the country I was born in the country I am a citizen of the only country I have considered home, and that would be UK. whats next some skin head comes and beats me up (not too uncommon in the Uk in the 70s) and when I complain for my rights against racist attacks some yahoo would come around and say oh but your parents came from pakistan and they have racial attacks there so change that first or live with it, or oh your grandpatents came from india, they have attacks there based on race/religion too, so change that or live with it.
Customs and cultures change over time, but we are talking about thousands of years of culture development. With what, a few decades of Muslim immigration?
does not matter, principle stays the same, No one is asking non muslims to cover up, no one even asking all muslims to cover up, my mother does not, my sister does not, no person in my family in Uk does that, actually no prsn in my entire family with the exception of one lady does that. But if someone wants to cover their face, its their right to do so, unless a law is passed. And even if a law is passed, people have a right to oppose that law, protest against it demonstrate against it, whatever. Isn’t that deomcracy, isn’t that freedom?
and when you talk about cuktural impact of immigration of a few decades, explain the spainch language signs and spanish instructions on automated answering systems on virtually all govt and financial call lines?
where there is a will there is a way.
Re: Muslim Teacher Suspended For Wearing Veil
**I dont see any forced deadline by minority for acceptance, i see a forced deadline from a majority for nonacceptance though.
**Well, we've either got a few centuries to go or a huge increase in the number of British-Muslims before we hit tthat deadline.
yeah but scots wearing girlie skirts has other historic associations as well but they dont get any laws to not wear em :)
Covering your face has historic cultural, negative connotations in British society. Fact of life. Has been as long as scots have been wearing skirts.
what happens in other countries is completely unrelated to this discussion.
No, it's not. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If someone proclaims that Muslim societies need to stay Muslim and not become homogenous (and let's face it, Muslim societies haven't changed much for centuries), then you can't also try to impose that cultures in socieites which have no historical Muslim influences. So if you are for string bikinis on the beaches of Dubai or western women in SA being allowed to drive, you are excluded.
why? why should my children have to deal with what happens in Pakistan a country that their father or mother are not citizens of, a country that al their garndparents left? T say that they can not speak up for their rights in th eonly country they know as their homeland until they go and advocate it equally for countries and societies that dont have any real conection to, is a silly argument.
I'm talking about those who have not integrated into western societies. LIke those who wear veils that cover their whole face.
does not matter, principle stays the same, No one is asking non muslims to cover up, no one even asking all muslims to cover up. And even if a law is passed, people have a right to oppose that law, protest against it demonstrate against it, whatever. Isn't that deomcracy, isn't that freedom?
No, they are demanding that aspects of their culture (some say religion) be accepted by others and those people have every right to complain, even if their is no law. I'm not saying they don't have a right to make those demands, I'm just saying I fall on the side that I think they need to adapt to the culture of the country instead of trying to change it. I wouldn't dream of wearing certain clothes in Muslim countries - not out of fear, but out of respect of centuries of customs and cultures.
and when you talk about cuktural impact of immigration of a few decades, explain the spainch language signs and spanish instructions on automated answering systems on virtually all govt and financial call lines?
There is a difference, Spanish speaking people have been a part of US history from the beginning and more than 15% of the population is hispanic.
where there is a will there is a way
That's how I feel about outlawing veils in the workplace and schools.
Re: Muslim Teacher Suspended For Wearing Veil
The british people are not just the english, irish, welsh and scots now. there are a lot of british ppl who do not belong to any of these ethnic groups, ranging from asians and africans to chinese and arab, eastern europeans and all.
so what is british culture, yes you see old timer fogies crying about merry old england, but sorry..merry old england was not compatible with a modern cosmopolitan lifestyle and a 21st century country and that is why it is gone.
People in the UK can dress the way they want in private. Dont think that's the issue. Problem arises in the workplace. The point's already been made, British people have not yet accepted the full veil as part of their culture (I dont think a scotsman dressed as a kilt would be allowed in school..I never saw one). Acceptance is gradual, and wont ever arise by making a big whinge about it. But there's also implications for teaching imo, seeing a face is important to a lot of people here. A veil is totally acceptable and the norm in say Saudi Arabia or Iran, but people there wouldnt accept the way British people dress? In fact, the beaches are segregated?
Re: Muslim Teacher Suspended For Wearing Veil
as I said since the very start of this thread. If a veil is considered an issue in terms of her ability to do her job then list that as a requirement and let her go. No issue with that at all.
wehn it it becomes a mishmash of arguments ranging from religious symbols at school ot communication issues to people's perceptions of covered faces, it is like beating around the bush.
the whole topic of cultural acceptability is a whole diff issue, there is stuff that is accepted culturally but not acceptable in the workplace, and I am actually fine with that. but you have to spell it out and list it as a consideration.
Again, I am not a supporter of veils, I am however a supporters of people's rights to do what they want to unless it is illegal or against regulations. make some sane regulations based on solid arguments, and I would be the first in the line to say no someone in veil should not be alloed to teach i public schools because it has been shown to take away from learnng experience of kids and that is why we have regulations against it.
My challenge is for Uk authorities to go draft this and implement it and not wuss about with it.
Re: Muslim Teacher Suspended For Wearing Veil
She was TA at a Church of England school.
In Catholic primary schools non-catholic teachers can not teach e.g christian pro, muslim,hindu, jew..and half of schools in UK are catholic.....even some of these schools have 60% muslim students.
If they were in need of muslim TA for supporting and she was doing her job without problem....why they raised this issue after jack straw's comments?
They should also make a policy that non catholic support staff like TA cannot be employed in catholic primary schools. Same like non catholic teachers.
Re: Muslim Teacher Suspended For Wearing Veil
^^ She should have raised this issue at the interview she had for the job when she was without any facial cover (one of the people interviewing her was male).