Muslim lesbian couple from Pakistan defies life threats, becomes first to get married

[muqawwee123]

Re: Muslim lesbian couple from Pakistan defies life threats, becomes first to get mar

the trouble with this argument is every religious extremist is convinced he is doing this exact thing too. and obviously there is no making sense with logical arguments, non-literal interpretations, and such. unquestionable dogma is deadly for a society with more than one kind of people.

Its not unquestionable dogma in totality. The part you didn't quote from my post had enough reasons to be convinced for most of Muslims.

[Zafra]

Re: Muslim lesbian couple from Pakistan defies life threats, becomes first to get mar

Ironic that this applies to your boy Bin Laden. It would be much easier to simply say that it is not your place to decide who is Muslim.

Have a good day.

And you miss the entire point. Or maybe you don't and you just don't want to admit it.

[partyslims]

Re: Muslim lesbian couple from Pakistan defies life threats, becomes first to get mar

I’m right and you’re wrong

[shopping_fan]

Better to suffer the pain of self discipline than to suffer the pain of regret......
So "queerly" true .

[psyah]

Re: Muslim lesbian couple from Pakistan defies life threats, becomes first to get mar

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I do not believe you have to present everything as a choice to children. What I am saying is that the government should not be limiting choices and discriminating against individuals. And the adults in a society do see that people have made choices that they do not agree with.

If you feel that your religious beliefs are best, then you study and teach others what you feel is good/right, both by your actions and your words. You are welcome to do that especially in the very countries you accuse of having some sort of hidden agenda because you have freedom of speech and freedom of religion in those countries.

Forcing people to practice some form of morality through laws is not going to encourage "good" behavior. It will simply encourage secretive, criminal, and abusive behavior.

I do not understand the opinion that allowing gay marriage and equal rights for gay people will somehow spread homosexual behavior. I feel no urge to fly to England to have a romantic relationship with another woman simply because of this news. The issue is not about spreading immoral behavior. It's a civil rights issue.

When we condone the restriction of human/civil rights for one group, we risk threatening our own.

"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." -- MLK, Jr.

Last, I will simply add that I do not have the right or audacity to label other humans non-Muslim. I do not know what is in their hearts or between that individual and Allah. I actually think it is extreme hubris to do such a thing, and to make threats and label another of Allah's creations in such a way. But those who think that is okay will need to answer for their own behavior. It is for Allah to judge who is a Muslim and who is not. The Quran has told us what is sinful behavior, and I am not suggesting to make what is haram in Islam halal. We can read, study, and teach based on our understanding of the Quran's teachings, without making threats and abusing our power to hurt another individual.

The government should only step in to ensure public safety and restrict behavior that deliberately harms others.

Peace S02

It has been proven that murderers share a similar mental make up to each other ... They can also argue that their desire to kill is natural and they should be given their civil rights to practice their tendency. The reality is that homosexual behaviour is a crime and should be stopped ... Just like any other crime ... Just like we treat the thief in accordance with the civil rights I agree so should we treat gays ... But that should not include publicly decriminalising gay sex ... If they do it in private and no one knows ... Then that does not harm society and neither will there be anyone to take take them to prison. But marriage and what-not ... ?

[S02]

Re: Muslim lesbian couple from Pakistan defies life threats, becomes first to get mar

^ if you reread the last line of my post, you will see your comparison to murderers is not relevant.

[psyah]

Re: Muslim lesbian couple from Pakistan defies life threats, becomes first to get mar

^ if you reread the last line of my post, you will see your comparison to murderers is not relevant.

Ok fair enough ... Then we should not stop suicidal people from committing suicide then ... Please see that Islam has its own definitions of crime/sin and these do harm society in a way that you probably don't realise.

[Muzna]

Re: Muslim lesbian couple from Pakistan defies life threats, becomes first to get mar

That which harms society is debatable.
psyah bhai.....I'm afraid that your theory and analogy doesn't hold water the way it is presented above.

[S02]

Re: Muslim lesbian couple from Pakistan defies life threats, becomes first to get mar

Ok fair enough ... Then we should not stop suicidal people from committing suicide then ... Please see that Islam has its own definitions of crime/sin and these do harm society in a way that you probably don't realise.

Yes, and you are free to keep your loved ones away from things that are harmful to them.

However, perhaps someone thinks that eating meat is harmful to society for moral as well as health reasons. That person then convinces others to restrict your rights so that you can no longer eat meat, meat that is Islamically halal for you. That is not fair. There are plenty of good reasons not to eat meat, but in the end it is your decision whether or not you eat and how you purchase/prepare it. And you are not harming another human being by choosing to live your life in this manner, though there are far-reaching environmental, health, and moral reasons that some people think you should not do so. You should have the right to live the way you want.

That's the way I see this issue. Perhaps you will say this is overly simplistic, but it is the above reasoning that is at the heart of my belief in the strengths of a secular society -- protection of the rights of all to live life as they wish, as long as they are not harming others.

[kakaballi]

Re: Muslim lesbian couple from Pakistan defies life threats, becomes first to get mar

No, not necessarily. The problem I have with religious people is that they think they have monopoly on what is right, just, and moral & they must impose their views on others even by force if necessary.

Same is the case with 'secular' thought. A society must have 'some' kind of laws. The laws in 'secular' societies have evolved over times. Things that were a no-no a few decades ago are legal now. How long it has been in human society that slavery has been illegal, compared to whole human history? It was only 150 years ago that people fought a deadly war to keep slavery legal, which they thought was right.

The definition of 'right', 'just' and 'moral' changes over time and religious people might claim that 'secular' views have been imposed on them, even by force.

[Shamraz_Khan]

Re: Muslim lesbian couple from Pakistan defies life threats, becomes first to get mar

@kakaballi

The definition of 'right', 'just' and 'moral' changes over time and religious people might claim that 'secular' views have been imposed on them, even by force.

You'd have a point the day a secular suicide bombers blows up someone for praying too much.

[muqawwee123]

Re: Muslim lesbian couple from Pakistan defies life threats, becomes first to get mar

@Shamraz_Khan

You'd have a point the day a secular suicide bombers blows up someone for praying too much.

as if likes of Raymond Davis fall under category of religious people and the operators of drones get themselves baptized from Church before attacking people.

[Ghost14]

Re: Muslim lesbian couple from Pakistan defies life threats, becomes first to get mar

@muqawwee123

as if likes of Raymond Davis fall under category of religious people and the operators of drones get themselves baptized from Church before attacking people.

Actually one of the problems in the US is that religion is mixed with imperialism. Bush and Blair thought they were fighting a holy war of sorts. Evangelicals and Jews support Israel for this reason today. The only reason Muslims can live in America, build a mosque near ground zero, is because the secular constitution protects the unpopular opinions of the minority, as long as those opinions and rights don't harm others.

[Ghost14]

Re: Muslim lesbian couple from Pakistan defies life threats, becomes first to get mar

@kakaballi

Same is the case with 'secular' thought. A society must have 'some' kind of laws. The laws in 'secular' societies have evolved over times. Things that were a no-no a few decades ago are legal now. How long it has been in human society that slavery has been illegal, compared to whole human history? It was only 150 years ago that people fought a deadly war to keep slavery legal, which they thought was right.

The definition of 'right', 'just' and 'moral' changes over time and religious people might claim that 'secular' views have been imposed on them, even by force.

Yes, but the flip side to that is that often times society changes for the better. You're right, slavery was legal as recently as 150 years ago, but it isn't anymore. And the reason slavery was justified was because it was allowed in the Bible. Britain banned slavery in 1772. Ashoka banned it in the 3rd century BC, almost a thousand years before Islam. Religion becomes a problem when people take literal interpretations and try to apply them in the same manner as 2,000 years ago. Would you really argue that the world is worse of now than it was 2,000 years ago? You don't think society has evolved at all?

If secular views have been imposed on people, it's because that's how a democracy works. The Christian right says this exact same thing in political debate, that they have somehow gotten away from America's Christian heritage (ridiculously false), and they would love to impose a sort of Christian law in America. Secularism keeps these nut jobs at bay because moderate Christians will defend the concept of the separation of church and state.

I feel the need to state this because it's shocking how many people on this board are misinformed but secular does not *mean no religion. Secular means that* the government doesn't care what your religion is, and that you can't make laws based on literal interpretations of scripture*. You can still be religious (look at America) and your religious views will show up in laws (homosexuality is not legal in all states, and neither is abortion) but these laws are ideally created in a non-religious government, by judges and politicians, not mullahs. It's the *process by which laws are created that's different in a secular system. The end result will probably be the same in a country like Pakistan.

[StormRaiser]

Re: Muslim lesbian couple from Pakistan defies life threats, becomes first to get mar

@muqawwee123

Very few left with the Prophet and the women and innocent children you are concerned for could have saved their lives by following the Prophet and leaving the place. They chose their and theirs families fate themselves.
.

Infants, toddlers and children should have not listened to their parents, but listened to somebody else. Seriously are you even thinking before you post. If you take the same analogy to a different level, what US is doing in Afghanistan is right. US asked for Bin laden and he was not given. Hence the US decided to do whatever is necessary, maybe that involved killing children. The children chose the fate for themselves I suppose.

@muqawwee123

We call ourselves Muslims and we believe blindly in God and the word of God. We don’t run behind worldly logic all the time, because when we believe that something is from God then ‘janene se ziada manena zaroori hota hai’.

There is something called the brain and it is imperative that it is used atleast once in a while

[muqawwee123]

Re: Muslim lesbian couple from Pakistan defies life threats, becomes first to get mar

@StormRaiser

Infants, toddlers and children should have not listened to their parents, but listened to somebody else. Seriously are you even thinking before you post. If you take the same analogy to a different level, what US is doing in Afghanistan is right. US asked for Bin laden and he was not given. Hence the US decided to do whatever is necessary, maybe that involved killing children. The children chose the fate for themselves I suppose.

So how many times you condemned that attacks on Afghanistan?

People always use the points for preaching their agenda.

I don’t know if you are a Muslim or not. If your are not Muslim, I’m not interested in discussing this issue with you.

If you are Muslim then search for the concept of ‘Atmam e Hujjat’

There is something called the brain and it is imperative that it is used atleast once in a while

Yes and moreover there is something called bias.. If you avoid that you will save yourselves from many storms.

[muqawwee123]

Re: Muslim lesbian couple from Pakistan defies life threats, becomes first to get mar

@Ghost14

Actually one of the problems in the US is that religion is mixed with imperialism. Bush and Blair thought they were fighting a holy war of sorts. Evangelicals and Jews support Israel for this reason today. The only reason Muslims can live in America, build a mosque near ground zero, is because the secular constitution protects the unpopular opinions of the minority, as long as those opinions and rights don’t harm others.

so what? allowing building mosques and looking every beard person with suspicion and getting mass support for massacre in Muslim world by calling wars as Crusades. is that what secular America all about?

[Ghost14]

Re: Muslim lesbian couple from Pakistan defies life threats, becomes first to get mar

@muqawwee123

so what? allowing building mosques and looking every beard person with suspicion and getting mass support for massacre in Muslim world by calling wars as Crusades. is that what secular America all about?

Are you reading what I wrote? The crusades, and “mass support for massacre” is a mix of imperialism and religion. Read my other post about how secularism is just a process by which laws are created. It can curb religious fanaticism, but it can’t eliminate it, i.e. a Muslim can technically become President, but most of the ignorant Christian masses wouldn’t vote for a Muslim.

You can’t use America as the de facto example because last I checked Turkey was a secular democracy as well and they are leaps and bounds ahead of Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. And they’re still Muslim. Last I checked, Turkey hadn’t imploded.

Being secular does not make you anti-religion.

[ninja_hattori]

Re: Muslim lesbian couple from Pakistan defies life threats, becomes first to get mar

@StormRaiser

Infants, toddlers and children should have not listened to their parents, but listened to somebody else. Seriously are you even thinking before you post. If you take the same analogy to a different level, what US is doing in Afghanistan is right. US asked for Bin laden and he was not given. Hence the US decided to do whatever is necessary, maybe that involved killing children. The children chose the fate for themselves I suppose.

There is something called the brain and it is imperative that it is used atleast once in a while

so you believe that no one of children killed when noah (pbuh) was in his ark?
according to our faith Allah has capability to reimburse these innocent children in heaven but do you claim same capability for america?
i know you are a catholic christian so lets see if condemn these priests or not?
Pope Francis Against Gay Marriage, Gay Adoption

[muqawwee123]

Re: Muslim lesbian couple from Pakistan defies life threats, becomes first to get mar

@Ghost14

Are you reading what I wrote? The crusades, and “mass support for massacre” is a mix of imperialism and religion. Read my other post about how secularism is just a process by which laws are created. It can curb religious fanaticism, but it can’t eliminate it, i.e. a Muslim can technically become President, but most of the ignorant Christian masses wouldn’t vote for a Muslim.

You can’t use America as the de facto example because last I checked Turkey was a secular democracy as well and they are leaps and bounds ahead of Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. And they’re still Muslim. Last I checked, Turkey hadn’t imploded.

Being secular does not make you anti-religion.

My point is why secular laws of America are unable to stop massacre in the name of crusades. Does the secularism apply for petty issues and face saving and infact the society in itself in fundamentalist in its very roots.