Muslim girl treated as outcast by moque community

Arts & Culture Culture, Arts, Literature & Linguistics
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Re: Muslim girl treated as outcast by moque community


2)
dancing is haram in mixed gatherings for both men and women

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Yes, absolutely, this is what my first question was leading up to...I shall know when you answer it.

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I already did
Just because the Police cant catch a thief you also want them to stop arresting murderers?

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. And this applies to Islam as well. If one of the Mullahs had indulged in some activity which goes against the Sharia while he was a teenager, but thinks all is ok now, since he's had a religious awakening, why cry over a girl who's not that mature in years yet.
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If he did somthing wrong in his early years and has sincerely repented over it now and made a firm commitment to never do it again then most likely he will be forgiven
to advise others to abstain from an evil act and encouraging others to do good is a commandment
If he can guide this girl to abandon something that is forbidden it will also be best for her.Rather than taking this as an interference with her "rights" she should consider it a blessing that scholars/ulemas are there to guide her.

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Moreover, she's in India, and religion being important is fine, but a bit of ur country's culture rubs off on you as well. That's not a bad thing is it?
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culturural practices that contradicts your religion should not be followed
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Whom should she please here?
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if she says that she is a believer pleasing God comes first.

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And dun say religion is more important than your country

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Offcourse religion is more important , following the laws of the country is also important as long as they dont contradict your religion.
But adopting pagan practices to please people of other faiths is not recommended in any way

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Re: Muslim girl treated as outcast by moque community

DasR - I take issue on many things in the above post by you.

  1. Dancing is NOT haram. It is considered a wonderful art form with divine aspects.One of the most famous forms Lord Shiva is worshipped in is in the divine dance. Bharatnatyam is a classical form and is not suggestive as you may have seen in movies

  2. Religious edicts have to be subservient to a nation's law if humanity is to survive. India has many religions with different and sometime contradictory practices. The nation's law is the arbiter, to avoid chaos. Culture is similar.

Unless all of humanity beomes part of one religion, it is not possible to support your claims. Even within islam there are many different practices and beliefs that contradict. By being bullheaded and enforcing one view on all is what has led to the horrible violence in the muslim world

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Re: Muslim girl treated as outcast by moque community

Actually it is even simpler.

Dancing is not haram

She dances, not you

She likes it

You don't own islam or dancing or her

ALYISH
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Re: Muslim girl treated as outcast by moque community

You have your opinions and I have mine.You cannot say what is right or wrong for muslims similarly I have no right to interfere in hindu religious festivities.

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. Religious edicts have to be subservient to a nation's law if humanity is to survive. India has many religions with different and sometime contradictory practices. The nation's law is the arbiter, to avoid chaos. Culture is similar.
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By the same logic why do you protest when Aurangzaib tried to enforce sharia when muslims were in power?
Why should people adopt customs that violate their religious injunctions simply to blend in with others.

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Unless all of humanity beomes part of one religion, it is not possible to support your claims. Even within islam there are many different practices and beliefs that contradict. By being bullheaded and enforcing one view on all is what has led to the horrible violence in the muslim world

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If you want muslims to become like hindus the ulemas will always oppose this
Various sects do exist withen islam as they do in all major religions.But if a person says that he/she is a follower of a particular sect/religion and then goes on to openly violate its teachings then the Religious leaders have every right to criticize them.

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Re: Muslim girl treated as outcast by moque community

I suggest your read a little about islamic law and practices before you draw such conclusions.

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Re: Muslim girl treated as outcast by moque community

Dancing is not universally considered haram, even in traditionalist, orthodox paradigms of Islamic thought:

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503545778](http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503545778)

But certain kinds of dancing can be, e.g.

i) Invoke paeans to pagan Gods
ii) Are sexually suggestive, or lewd

There is a big difference between, say, Murjah style dancing and the kind of innocent stuff that goes on at a mehndi. If the style of ‘dance’ Hindus partake in were not so heavily laced with Hindu religiosity, or if there were secular forms of it then there would be a strong case for it. The movements involved are unique in that they are heavily formalized and in fact tell a story in rather non-suggestive ways and do not imply a loss of inhibition or self control. It’s more akin to a Martial Art Kata than anything else I can think of off hand. Personally, I’d prefer it if people would do the Katas instead…see, we’re not anti-Culture at all…in fact, I’m for a pick-and-choose approach across all global cultures :slight_smile:

The bottom line is, all public acts can be challenged under whatever pretense. Personal choice takes a back seat to social strictures, and people who want to push the bounds should expect to be pushed back. Always, and universally so. So, if she’s dancing in private…then leave her be. If not, then she’s open to criticism.

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Re: Muslim girl treated as outcast by moque community

The local's opposition was based on immitation (rather, glorification) of pagan rituals, not dance per sae.

It should be noted that no party has ever run on a platform of dance, so turning their backs on the plethora of religious parties doesn't really translate to support on any particular issue. I mean, droves came out for the cartoon-protests led by religous parties...they're still not going to get elected.

I dare say the population is so passive that if dance were banned, there would be no cry over it...except among expats of course....:D

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Re: Muslim girl treated as outcast by moque community

This is a massive cop-out.

No one here is advocating violence. Pointing out inconsistent views across the whole does not imply one cannot tenaciously cling to a particular position themselves.

There is a paradigm of thought at work here, and contrary to popular want here, Islam will and should affect society. Those who think otherwise are automatically outcasts by their own will, so they don't count.

Would it be too much to at the very least explain a position through reasoned argument rather than proclamation? The traditionalists have it easy here, I admit...they simply uphold the status quo...but what you're advocating is an intellectual abdication because of lack of unity...

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Re: Muslim girl treated as outcast by moque community

let me tell u what would happen in kerala. The mosque is going to allow her and her family in. She is going to dance and be famous. There are sufficient muslims in kerala who could see through these religious bigots and would come in defence of the girls family.

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Re: Muslim girl treated as outcast by moque community

Why is it an act of bigotry not to ascribe partners to God?

Sorry, but that is a bigoted thing to say. We have a set of social norms, and we'd like to keep them. Dance that glorifies other deities, never mind the nonsensical attempts at drawing equivalence to each others Gods, is clearly prohibited. If she want's to do it, she will suffer the ostracism.

Even in Kerala. Beautiful place, by the way...

Live and let live only works when you're not poking each other in the eye. It may be childish to play the "well, she poked me first" game...but hey, all was dandy up until the controversy...

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Re: Muslim girl treated as outcast by moque community

yes but its about intentions....just like those that acted like they converted to islam in prophet Muhammad's time and imitated prayer are actually the Munafiqeen....the girl dancing without intending to be worshipping the hindu deity is not a pagan.

and dancing per se is not haraam? see even muslims cannot come to a decision....

that remains to be seen....
and if there is no cry that doesnt mean it wont go on behind closed doors....come on..they couldnt effectively enforce a simple thing like having five different food items in weddings...
and in case the expat part was a personal attack...i dont think there is anything wrong with debating issues even if we are not in our country....yes in order to CHANGE things we need to be part of the system....that time will come soon too.

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Re: Muslim girl treated as outcast by moque community

interesting. who is poking who here? she's doing what she likes with her parents' support. If some of you don't like it, don't go to the dance. calling her faith into question or insulting the dance is an act 'poking' as you call it.

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Re: Muslim girl treated as outcast by moque community

Which is why if her dance were done in private, it truley would be between her and God.

But since it isn't, and it openly challenges widely held mores in her community, then I'm afraid that "don't watch" exhortation doesn't hold weight. Acts done in public influence, if one is observing or not. By not doing anything, one is sending a message...control of the public sphere is a classic social battle ground.

As I said, the burden in this sort of fight always falls on those who buck the status quo...so if we look at the causality of it all, our own bias aside, it's clearly her and her family, and whomever who insists on making this rather pedestrian local dispute a national/international issue, who is agitating...and not those who oppose her.

Breaking News: Kuttaa bhoN bhoN karta hai
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Re: Muslim girl treated as outcast by moque community

Similar to Bassant, I agree to a large extent...though, I think one can only take a dance that has strict religious connotations so far. If a Muslim's gonna sing "Praise Jesus, son of God"...then I'm inclined to think he's either an idiot or unneccessarily insulting to Christians.

To be clear, my own point of view is that the community's reaction is a bit much with respect to refusing to bury and all...but given the consequenes I hardly think it's "heroic" of her to continue on dancing that particular dance...really, there are alternatives.

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and dancing per se is not haraam? see even muslims cannot come to a decision....

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...to which we would expect a reasoned explanation of why one took a certain stance, not a wishing away of the role religion in this matter because there is no homogeneity in thought. What I am agitating against is what strikes me as the "well, screw you we're gonna do it anyway" attitude. Fine, do it...but screw you back :D

In fact, I'm not exactly dead against her dancing about exactly...it's the particular form of dance I find questionable. But that's the extent of it...it really is a local issue, and all I care to do is make distant observations.

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that remains to be seen....
and if there is no cry that doesnt mean it wont go on behind closed doors....come on..they couldnt effectively enforce a simple thing like having five different food items in weddings...

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No, but then what happens in private is private. With regards to your example, one then needs to be very mindful of who they invite, and that task alone is probably headache enough to alter behavior. But if they pull it off, then so be it...everyone is happy then, no?

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and in case the expat part was a personal attack...i dont think there is anything wrong with debating issues even if we are not in our country....yes in order to CHANGE things we need to be part of the system....that time will come soon too.
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Hey, I'm a part of the expat community too...in fact, I'm not even a citizen of Pakistan or India.

But I'm only stating the obvious if I say that if one wants to be a part of the system, they have to play by the rules of the system.

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Cur, First of all, the question I am going to ask you is in no way derogative nor meant to shock you into believeing what I believe…I mean no offense and I hope you won’t take it…

Second, mods, this is not a personal question but my response will depend upon the answer, so please do not remove it…It’s a general question…

Cur, since you believe dancing is such an art form, such a divine passion, such graceful exhortation of the body and mind e.t.c. e.t.c…

My question to you is: Would you be comfortable if your mother was a skilled dancer and was surrounded by strange men, would you be comfortable with her jumping and going through the motions of dancing in front of those strange men while they stare at her?

MooTi mooTii Wives
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Re: Muslim girl treated as outcast by moque community

I would be proud of her if she was practicing any classical art forms. i wouldnt though if she is doing a mujra.

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Re: Muslim girl treated as outcast by moque community

Das Reich, all of the things you said in your post addressed to me are subjective. We all have our own views, to each his own.....

....the bottomline being our opinions are not gna affect the girl or her life one bit.

Go girl go, live life sincerely, do what you believe in and your God will always be with you.

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Re: Muslim girl treated as outcast by moque community

I did not read all of the posts but got the idea that there is a big deal about
a girl's family getting no interest from local Masjid. (Proper word is Masjid and not mosque).

So what's the big deal. Why she or her parents want to 'cling' to islamic heritage when it is not allowed in islam for a woman to sell her body or its actions?

OK before anyone asks me the reference.....let me ask if any woman on this forum would love to do that or any man here would allow his wife, daughter or sister to sell her body or its actions like this?

All who agree say 'yes'.

I wouldl still say she and her family deserve what they got..like it was mentioned by LJ.

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I agree

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Re: Muslim girl treated as outcast by moque community

The Mujra dance is considered a highly classical artform too…