Re: Muslim Blood - Cheap Commodity by Yvonne Ridley
^ Brother that is a very convenient stance... perhaps not as rock solid as you had hoped though.
Re: Muslim Blood - Cheap Commodity by Yvonne Ridley
I use the term "think", because I don't DARE to say I "know" everything that happened in Islamic history, especially if its not documented directly from a primary source. There are definitely holes in history, and it would do YOU some good to read up on history, because obviously, if you have, you'd know that the more you learn, the more you realize you don't know much at all. Therefore, I avoid the term "I know", unless if its something I know for a fact, as in I know I am female.
It would do you good to follow the Prophet's ways of intellectual humility - its something I learned from reading about the Prophet's way of life, which sadly, is something you missed. And the irony of telling others to read up on thier history!
Re: Muslim Blood - Cheap Commodity by Yvonne Ridley
Sorry, Ali_R, but you think **those hadith are authentic and authoritative and you **think they should be regarded as almost as importantly as the Quran itself. Nobody can say they absolutely "know" those things are true. Only Muslim tradtion, history and culture makes you think you do. Sorry, but a collection of traditions put together 200 years after the death of Muhammed doesn't qualify as known fact.
Re: Muslim Blood - Cheap Commodity by Yvonne Ridley
Sorry, Ali_R, but you think **those hadith are authentic and authoritative and you **think they should be regarded as almost as importantly as the Quran itself. Nobody can say they absolutely "know" those things are true. Only Muslim tradtion, history and culture makes you think you do. Sorry, but a collection of traditions put together 200 years after the death of Muhammed doesn't qualify as known fact.
And a non-Muslim is certainly in the best position to declare that...
Re: Muslim Blood - Cheap Commodity by Yvonne Ridley
You never know brother.
Re: Muslim Blood - Cheap Commodity by Yvonne Ridley
And a non-Muslim is certainly in the best position to declare that...
I agree. The truth generally comes through objectivity. Muslims have been raised to believe these subjective to be objective when are not. One does not need to be of a particular religion to use logic.
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Re: Muslim Blood - Cheap Commodity by Yvonne Ridley
I use the term "think", because I don't DARE to say I "know" everything that happened in Islamic history, especially if its not documented directly from a primary source. There are definitely holes in history, and it would do YOU some good to read up on history, because obviously, if you have, you'd know that the more you learn, the more you realize you don't know much at all. Therefore, I avoid the term "I know", unless if its something I know for a fact, as in I know I am female.
It would do you good to follow the Prophet's ways of intellectual humility - its something I learned from reading about the Prophet's way of life, which sadly, is something you missed. And the irony of telling others to read up on thier history!
I'm passing derogatory comments upon people who are preaching Peace?
How many times do I have to tell you, before you label me with something, bring PROOF. Back it up!
And I'm sorry, but sometimes You have to accept, you need to do a bit of reading before posting crap that you pull out of no where. Can't help but keep advising that.
G'day.
Re: Muslim Blood - Cheap Commodity by Yvonne Ridley
Actually you need to be backing up your comments. I've defended mine pretty well, *I think, and if still isn't clear to you that you have NO REASON to be insulting people who are actively involved in educating people about Islam, *
Peace again
Okay so there is NO REASON to insult those who actively educate about Islam
which is something I'm sure your lazy behind knows nothing about, then you are beyond hope.
Wo Sister, in the same sentence that is a good one! Just forgot you told me to put a sock in it. I gave you rep points for that post.
Re: Muslim Blood - Cheap Commodity by Yvonne Ridley
And a non-Muslim is certainly in the best position to declare that...
Actually, no. I'm a muslim, and I think the same thing. Doesn't mean I don't respect the efforts made to compile the hadith. I just don't buy that they're as strong dictates as what the Quran has, BECAUSE they were written down after so much time spent rolling around in oral traditions.
Re: Muslim Blood - Cheap Commodity by Yvonne Ridley
Actually, no. I'm a muslim, and I think the same thing. Doesn't mean I don't respect the efforts made to compile the hadith. I just don't buy that they're as strong dictates as what the Quran has, BECAUSE they were written down after so much time spent rolling around in oral traditions.
Quran was sent down through oral traditions too. Try proving that false, it could have been rolling around in there too.
Weakest argument ever used. Both have sciences, both can be sound. Those who cannot be, are not accepted. Simple.
Re: Muslim Blood - Cheap Commodity by Yvonne Ridley
Actually, no. I'm a muslim, and I think the same thing. Doesn't mean I don't respect the efforts made to compile the hadith. I just don't buy that they're as strong dictates as what the Quran has, BECAUSE they were written down after so much time spent rolling around in oral traditions.
You believe everything the kuffar throw at you and this what you become.
I've said it a gazillion times, even had a thread on this, proving these misconceptions wrong and actually having names of the *Sahifas *that were produced by Sahabaas writing down everything the Prophet would say to them.
Yet these people continue to fool themselves.
Re: Muslim Blood - Cheap Commodity by Yvonne Ridley
You believe everything the kuffar throw at you and this what you become.
I've said it a gazillion times, even had a thread on this, proving these misconceptions wrong and actually having names of the *Sahifas *that were produced by Sahabaas writing down everything the Prophet would say to them.
Yet these people continue to fool themselves.
by not learning their own islamic traditions, and their own islamic history.
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Re: Muslim Blood - Cheap Commodity by Yvonne Ridley
by not learning their own islamic traditions, and their own islamic history.
Ah yes, the history which is full of murder, pillage, and rape, and not to mention homosexual pedestary. We can learn a lot from Islamic history.
Re: Muslim Blood - Cheap Commodity by Yvonne Ridley
If one needs guidance than for him/her Quran and Sunnah is enough with open heart. And by the way it will not come to you [not specifically you, I mean every one including myself], we have to go and get the knowledge to get the guidance. On the day of judgement Allah :swt: will not say did the knowledge came to you and did you used that knowledge for guidance, He will ask what effort did you made to get the knowledge for guidance? To guide yourself, to guide your family, kids and so on…
My friend its going to be a very hard day if we do not get ready for the final day.
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Re: Muslim Blood - Cheap Commodity by Yvonne Ridley
Quran was sent down through oral traditions too. Try proving that false, it could have been rolling around in there too.
Weakest argument ever used. Both have sciences, both can be sound. Those who cannot be, are not accepted. Simple.
Sorry, that's a weak argument. Fristly The Quran was mostly compiled before the prophet's death, the parts that weren't were validated with the oral testimony of at least two companions. That is a far cry from collecting scattered sayings from scattered people 200 years later. Imagine today, trying to verify oral histories from 1807 that were written down by who knows? In 1807 people were much more literate and educated than in the 600's, and it still would be an imposible task to verify with certainty.
Secondly, the Quran is protected by God - which by objective standards is the only possible way one can believe that the words that were recorded on parchment, stone, wood, leather, leaves and bones are 100% accurate. The hadith have no such protection.
Re: Muslim Blood - Cheap Commodity by Yvonne Ridley
Stages of Recording Hadith
By Mohsen Haredy
Some people allege that there was no methodology for recording Hadith, especially during the Prophet’s lifetime, and accordingly, this casts doubt about the authenticity of the science of Hadith and Sunnah in general.
This allegation is quite wrong as during his lifetime, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) used to teach his Sunnah by three methods: verbal, written (dictation to scribes), and practical demonstration.
As far as the first method is concerned, the Prophet used to repeat important things three times and then listen to what the Companions had learned from him. The second method includes all the letters of the Prophet to kings inviting them to Islam, and to Muslim governors detailing the rules of zakah and other legal matters. Likewise, the Prophet taught his Companions how to perform ablution, prayer, fasting, pilgrimage, and so on. This represents the third method of teaching the Sunnah by the Prophet.
The Companions played an important role in learning and teaching the Hadith of the Prophet. They used all the three methods applied by the Prophet to teach the Sunnah, and they committed hadiths of the Prophet to memory.
Writing Down of the Hadith (Tadwin Al-Hadith)
In Hadith literature, we are faced with hadiths that forbid and others that permit the writing down of hadiths.
Abu Said Al-Khudri reported a hadith that forbids the writing down of hadiths: **“Do not write from me anything except the Qur’an and whosoever has written anything from me other than the Qur’an should erase it.”** This is the only sound hadith in this regard. Other often-quoted hadiths that forbid the writing down of hadiths are weak and unacceptable. The above mentioned hadith is recorded in Al-Bukhari, and according to him it is the statement of Abu Said Al-Khudri himself. The hadith meant that nothing should be written with the Qur’an on the same sheet, as this might lead to mixing the text of the Qur’an with that of the Hadith. This command was given when the Qur’an was being revealed bit by bit and was yet incomplete.
Another interpretation of the hadith is that it was forbidden to write down hadiths in early days because all attention was to be paid to the Qur’an and its preservation. Then later on, when there was no fear of abandoning the Qur’an, the previous order was abrogated and the Companions were permitted to write down hadiths. On the other hand, we have evidence that the Prophet approved of writing down his hadiths.
We find that many Companions recorded hadiths. For example, Abdullah ibn Amr was permitted and even encouraged by the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) to write down Hadith. In addition, some 50 Companions and many followers are said to have possessed manuscripts (sahifah, Arabic plural suhuf), which was used as a term to designate compendia of Hadith that emerged during the century before the formation of the classical collections. The original manuscripts have been lost, but a very few copies have survived. An example is the manuscript of Hammam ibn Munabbih, who learned from Abu Hurairah and from him he wrote his manuscript which contains 138 hadiths. This manuscript is believed to have been written down around the middle of the first century after the Hijrah (seventh century CE).
In the beginning of the second Hijri century, during the reign of Umar ibn Abdul-`Aziz (AH 97-101/715-19 CE) the texts of Hadith were committed to writing. The Sunnah was collected in Syria, Egypt, Iraq, Yemen, and Khurasan. Leading theologians uttered some statements warning against unscrupulous reporters and their unreliable reports.
Imam Malik (d. AH 179/795 CE) was the first to undertake the comprehensive and systematic compilation of Hadith. His work is known as Al-Muwatta’ (The Trodden Path). Later, other compilations came into existence.
In this regard, it is very important to note that there are two kinds of compilations: musnad and musannaf. In musnad collections, hadiths are arranged alphabetically under the names of the Companions on whose authority these hadiths were reported. An example of this kind is the Musnad of Ibn Hanbal (d. AH 241/855 CE).
In musannaf collections, hadiths are recorded under various headings dealing with juridical subjects such as As-Sihah As-Sittah (The Six Authentic Books of Hadith), namely the compilations of Al-Bukhari (d. AH 256/870 CE), Muslim (d. AH 261/874 CE), An-Nasa’i (d. AH 303/916 CE), Abu Dawud (d. AH 275/889 CE), At-Tirmidhi (d. AH 279/892 CE), and Ibn Majah (d. AH 273/886 CE).
Evolution of the Science of Hadith
As time passed, many hadiths appeared due to several reasons. Some of these hadiths were not authentic. Therefore, it was quite necessary to sift out the authentic from the fabricated. One can say that this task was as necessary as that of removing the weeds from a flower bed. To be sure, the task was not that easy for early scholars to develop a tool by which they could regulate such immense Hadith literature.
It should be observed that the rules and criteria developed by Hadith scholars regulating their study of Hadith were meticulous, but some of their terminology varied from person to person, and their principles began to be systematically written down, but scattered among various books, for example, the Risalah of Ash-Shafii, the introduction to the *Sahih* of Muslim, and the *Jami* of At-Tirmidhi. Many of the criteria of early Hadith scholars, such as Al-Bukhari, were deduced by later scholars from a careful study of which reporters or isnads (chains of transmission) were accepted or rejected by them.
In this way the science of Hadith (mustalah al-hadith) emerged. It was the purpose of this science to sift, organize, develop, and systemize earlier material. Scholars put forward theories, expanded biographical works of all generations, made full and well-defined classification of narrators and hadiths, and subjected works of leading compilers to vigorous scrutiny, sparing not even Al-Bukhari and Muslim.
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&cid=1158658454996&pagename=Zone-English-Living_Shariah%2FLSELayout
Re: Muslim Blood - Cheap Commodity by Yvonne Ridley
Quran was sent down through oral traditions too. Try proving that false, it could have been rolling around in there too.
Weakest argument ever used. Both have sciences, both can be sound. Those who cannot be, are not accepted. Simple.
It was not rolling around on people's tongues with no checks for 200-300 years before getting written down.
People would memorize Quranic verses. In hoards. So, if anything would have been written down that was wrong, it would have swiftly been corrected. Additionally, many verses were written down on parchment, tree bark ,and hide, and those verses are in accordance with the written record we have today. It was a more organized form of recording scripture.
The hadith were not memorized and recited this way at all. So, it was difficult to determine whether a report of a hadith was true or not, hence so many claims of hadith got thrown out by collectors and they were very keen on making it clear that they did the best they could with the reports they had. By the time they were collecting hadith - Islam had spread far and people from distant areas were claiming they remembered the Prophet do X or say Y, and it became quite difficult to figure out what was correct and what was not.
Big difference in transmissions of information between the Quran and the Hadith - HUGE!
The Quran was accumulated into one cohesive book form under Caliph Umer (I believe it was Umer, if not him then Usman). But that doesn't mean it was in written form prior to that. It was, but the verses were no compiled into one handy dandy book that you could carry around.
The Hadith were collected past the Caliph's time, other than what Bibi Ayesha had drummed into her students, and the political regimes at the time were well known to have employed people to claim they remembered certain hadith. They were lying and making it all up, for political maneuvering. Bibi Ayesha's reported Hadith would have a little more legitamacy to them. God knows what the collectors mistakenly let slip through into the current collections of Hadith.
Additionally, your own Quran continues to emphasize the importance of following the Quran and reading its message. You guys can usually only bring up ONE quote in the Quran to support that we need to follow the Prophet. Goes to show where God's rank is and where the Prophet's rank is. And until you guys stop deeming the Prophet as next to God, in line of respect and power, your habits will not change.
Re: Muslim Blood - Cheap Commodity by Yvonne Ridley
It was not rolling around on people's tongues with no checks for 200-300 years before getting written down.
People would memorize Quranic verses. In hoards. So, if anything would have been written down that was wrong, it would have swiftly been corrected. Additionally, many verses were written down on parchment, tree bark ,and hide, and those verses are in accordance with the written record we have today. It was a more organized form of recording scripture.
The hadith were not memorized and recited this way at all. So, it was difficult to determine whether a report of a hadith was true or not, hence so many claims of hadith got thrown out by collectors and they were very keen on making it clear that they did the best they could with the reports they had. By the time they were collecting hadith - Islam had spread far and people from distant areas were claiming they remembered the Prophet do X or say Y, and it became quite difficult to figure out what was correct and what was not.
Big difference in transmissions of information between the Quran and the Hadith - HUGE!
Please read post no 136 before showing your knowledge and intellect here. Thank You
Re: Muslim Blood - Cheap Commodity by Yvonne Ridley
Please go read the Quran before showing your "knowledge" and "intellect" here. Thank-you.
Re: Muslim Blood - Cheap Commodity by Yvonne Ridley
Please go read the Quran before showing your "knowledge" and "intellect" here. Thank-you.
I do...mauhtarima. You haven't quoted anything from Qur'an in your post as a proof, or have you?